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Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by eigenspace on Friday November 02, 2018 @04:27PM (#18366436)
I do love Geometric Albegra and hope it gets further adoption. In my field (physics), the project of moving to geometric algebra currently looks hopeless due to the inertia of other formalisms and lack of interest from established physicists.

The real shame is that the best opportunity to introduce physicists to geometric algebra was a hundred years ago when we were first discovering spinors. First the Pauli algebra and then the Dirac algebra. If physicsts at the time had been made aware of the geometric algebra approach to these things, I think it could have been an appropriate motivation to switch to geometric algebra. Instead, people came up with matrix representations of the Pauli and Dirac algebras and the field is stuck using those and saying "meh. Good enough."

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by keldaris on Friday November 02, 2018 @06:40PM (#18367319)
In my personal experience physicists are usually rather pragmatic about these things. Not many will support a "project of moving to geometric algebra" for its own sake, or the sake of perceived mathematical elegance - I know I wouldn't, even though I spent some time studying it just for fun. On the other hand, find a problem where geometric algebra gets you to a useful insight in a quicker or more natural way and few will object to treating it in that language.

For most of the usecases associated with the examples you mention - Pauli and Dirac algebras - I don't think it matters very much. For instance, I haven't seen a decent QM course that doesn't devote at least a lecture or two to discussing the origin of Pauli matrices and the associated abstract algebra and group theory - as they should - but I don't think the course would be any more concise or useful (in terms of the physical content) if it then proceeded to treat QM in the language of geometric algebra. There's nothing wrong with the matrix representations (especially in a more computational context), though obviously one should know where the representation comes from and how to derive it.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by eigenspace on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:03PM (#18367443)
> On the other hand, find a problem where geometric algebra gets you to a useful insight in a quicker or more natural way and few will object to treating it in that language.

I would argue that E&M and anything involving rotations (or Lorenzt boosts!) are two great examples where GA is miles ahead of anything other than differential forms but still has modest advantages of differential forms as well.

The main advantage I see in geometric algebra is that its a unifying framework. The same langauge used to understand E&M in GA is also useful in quantum mechanics, general relativity, complex analysis, linear algebra, etc. I'd argue that physicists don't mind this mish-mash of notations because they've already put in the work to learn them all separtely but I think there are real advantages (especially pedagogical) to unifying them into one framework.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by keldaris on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:12PM (#18367488)
I think that last point really needs to start with a thorough reform of basic mathematical education (starting from undergrad calculus) to have any chance of real success. The present mish-mash of notations, however disjointed, lends itself very well to teaching people who don't know much beyond basic real analysis and differential equations. You can't just throw them in a GA-based E&M class without completely changing the entire curriculum first.

Your first point got me curious, though. I found E&M in differential forms quite satisfying from an intellectual point of view (although of little practical benefit to the problems I was interested in compared to the classical approach, which I was plenty familiar with already). What advantages do you see for GA vs. differential forms in this context? This might make for a few interesting seminars with our math folks...

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by eigenspace on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:39PM (#18367631)
I should be clear here that my longing for a physics community that embraces GA should not be confused with any level of optimism that it'll actually happen. I agree its a monstrously difficult task and our current formalisms are more or less good enough. A man can dream though!

One advantage I see in the GA treatment of E&M is in radiation. If one takes the Faraday bivector for a stationary charge (ie. the Coulumb field) and then just 'rotates' it into a moving frame using the GA rotors you can find the standard radiation fields of E&M quite easily. This is cool because it's not only a neat proceedure mathematically, but its computationally quite efficient, say if you need to find the fields produced by N moving charged particles.

I'm sure there are more examples of things like this but it's been a while since I last looked at E&M in GA so none are coming to mind right now.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by posix_me_less on Saturday November 03, 2018 @05:54AM (#18369447)
How do you "just 'rotate'" bivector into accelerated frame? Because if you're talking about Lorentz transformations between inertial frames, those alone can't give you radiation fields.

To get radiation fields, you need Maxwell's equations and boundary conditions. When you have those, what is the use of GA?

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by eigenspace on Saturday November 03, 2018 @01:58PM (#18371530)
Yes, it seems I have oversimplified things. My apologies, it's been a little while. Instead of the prescription I described, here is what one must do:

1) Start with the Coulomb potential A(r) = qγ₀/(4πr)

2) make it covariant by replacing r -> r -> X⋅γ₀ where X = r(γ₀ + γᵣ). This is a trivial transformation in the static frame as one can easily show X⋅γ₀ == r, but it's important as it encodes the causal information you astutely pointed out is vital to obtaining radiation solutions.

This gives A(r) = qγ₀/(4π X⋅γ₀)

3) Now, one can 'rotate' this to a frame with (not necessarily constant) velocity v via A'(r) = R A(R̃ x R) R̃ ie. evaluate the rotated A at inverse rotate spacetime position. Then

A'(r) = q v/(4π X⋅v)

This is the Liénard–Wiechert potential (this can also be obtained by solving ∇²A = J using the retarded Green's function G(r, t) = δ(|r|-t)/(4π|r|).

4) Now once can get the radiation fields by taking the derivative of this and doing some algebra:

F = ∇A = (q/4π) (X ∧ v + ½ X(v̇ ∧ v)X)/(X⋅v)³

The term proportional to X ∧ v is just the Coulomb field, but the term with the X(v̇ ∧ v)X is the radiation field which one can show propagates to infinity.

This is unfortunately much less elegant and straightforward than I let on initially so I apologize.

I still think this has advantages over standard treatments but your milage may vary.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by keldaris on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:46PM (#18367663)
That's a neat example, thanks!
Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by wolfgke on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:29PM (#18367570)
> You can't just throw them in a GA-based E&M class without completely changing the entire curriculum first.

Preparing for the additional requirements of the lectures of the coming semester is whar the semester break is for.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by jacobolus on Friday November 02, 2018 @08:03PM (#18367736)
Nah, you really want to start students learning the GA formalism in their linear algebra and vector calculus classes, if not in high school.

Especially important in high school is to dive into not only the “complex numbers” but also the “split complex numbers”.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by keldaris on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:33PM (#18367594)
Sure, as long as you don't expect anyone to complete the course or are willing to play catch up for most of the semester. In other words, I'd love to plan courses that way, but no university administrator would ever let me (instead I restrict myself to graduate seminars and beyond).
Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by bsder on Friday November 02, 2018 @08:01PM (#18367729)
How does Geometric Algebra link into the 4-vector representation of E&M?

https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/collective-electrodynamics

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by impendia on Saturday November 03, 2018 @11:21AM (#18370599)
Can I ask you (and keldaris) what precisely you mean by geometric algebra, and how you would propose to teach it?

I'm a math professor. To me "geometric algebra" refers to any use of geometry in mathematics to illuminate algebraic principles. There are very very many of these -- this article illustrates one good example. I try to incorporate intuition from geometry into my teaching whenever possible.

It seems that the two of you are referring to some particular unifying framework, and/or set of definitions and notation. Could I ask you to elaborate on what you mean?

Thanks.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by dahart on Saturday November 03, 2018 @12:33PM (#18371047)
Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by impendia on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:20AM (#18382451)
Thanks, I'll have a look!

This looks a bit too high-level to inform my undergraduate teaching, but certainly I could learn something from this.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by cartep on Saturday November 03, 2018 @12:21PM (#18370970)
I'm not any of the two you asked, but given that @eigenspace is a physicist, what you are looking for (notations used, etc) is possibly here:

http://geocalc.clas.asu.edu/html/Evolution.html#References

under "Recent Books". Notably "Clifford Algebra to Geometric Calculus" and "New Foundations for Classical Mechanics" by Hestenes.

PD: if you ever attempt to read any of those two, I'd advise to go to the latest (corrected) reprint.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by nanofortnight on Saturday November 03, 2018 @12:23PM (#18370981)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_algebra

Less ambiguously called "Clifford algebras", though Clifford himself prefered the term geometric algebra.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by qubex on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:20PM (#18367522)
Not “meh, good enough” but rather “eh, computationally equivalent, why bother reformulating something that looks like a black box but is actually a gimmick we can rely upon to give equivalent results and that is understood by everybody in the field?”
Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by klodolph on Saturday November 03, 2018 @03:31AM (#18369149)
Two ways of approaching a problem can be computationally equivalent and yet one can be a clear winner. For example, take a look at Maxwell’s equations—as originally formulated there were 20 different equations, with many equations duplicated for x, y, and z. Heaviside, Gibbs, and Hertz reformulated these using vectors and reduced the number of equations to four. Computationally equivalent, but nobody uses the 20-equation version of Maxwell’s equations any more.

Now consider relativity, which was originally motivated by Maxwell’s equations. We can describe flat spacetime as a 4D space with the Minkowski metric, which we can extend into a geometric algebra Cl_1,3(R). We can then describe field and current as multivectors, and we end up with the equation (singular!)

∇ F = µ_0 c J

This has the additional property that it captures how observations of electromagnetism change under Lorentz transforms. If you think of a Lorentz transform as just a change of basis in spacetime algebra, and if you think of electricity and magnetism as together being the basis for electromagnetism, then it’s obvious that (for example) a moving observer would see a magnetic field generated by a stationary charge.

This is obvious because the basis change from a stationary to moving observer will directly correspond to a basis change from an electric field to a magnetic field. This is simplifying a bit but I find it easier to remember and reason about the geometric algebra version of many of these formulas.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by petermcneeley on Friday November 02, 2018 @06:29PM (#18367257)
Do you think nature requires such an exotic representation?
Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by eigenspace on Friday November 02, 2018 @06:57PM (#18367409)
I would argue that there is nothing exotic about geometric algebra and that its a much more natural representation of nature than our current hodge-podge of traditional vectors, tensors, complex numbers, differential forms and spinors.