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Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by eigenspace on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:03PM (#18367443)
> On the other hand, find a problem where geometric algebra gets you to a useful insight in a quicker or more natural way and few will object to treating it in that language.

I would argue that E&M and anything involving rotations (or Lorenzt boosts!) are two great examples where GA is miles ahead of anything other than differential forms but still has modest advantages of differential forms as well.

The main advantage I see in geometric algebra is that its a unifying framework. The same langauge used to understand E&M in GA is also useful in quantum mechanics, general relativity, complex analysis, linear algebra, etc. I'd argue that physicists don't mind this mish-mash of notations because they've already put in the work to learn them all separtely but I think there are real advantages (especially pedagogical) to unifying them into one framework.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by keldaris on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:12PM (#18367488)
I think that last point really needs to start with a thorough reform of basic mathematical education (starting from undergrad calculus) to have any chance of real success. The present mish-mash of notations, however disjointed, lends itself very well to teaching people who don't know much beyond basic real analysis and differential equations. You can't just throw them in a GA-based E&M class without completely changing the entire curriculum first.

Your first point got me curious, though. I found E&M in differential forms quite satisfying from an intellectual point of view (although of little practical benefit to the problems I was interested in compared to the classical approach, which I was plenty familiar with already). What advantages do you see for GA vs. differential forms in this context? This might make for a few interesting seminars with our math folks...

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by eigenspace on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:39PM (#18367631)
I should be clear here that my longing for a physics community that embraces GA should not be confused with any level of optimism that it'll actually happen. I agree its a monstrously difficult task and our current formalisms are more or less good enough. A man can dream though!

One advantage I see in the GA treatment of E&M is in radiation. If one takes the Faraday bivector for a stationary charge (ie. the Coulumb field) and then just 'rotates' it into a moving frame using the GA rotors you can find the standard radiation fields of E&M quite easily. This is cool because it's not only a neat proceedure mathematically, but its computationally quite efficient, say if you need to find the fields produced by N moving charged particles.

I'm sure there are more examples of things like this but it's been a while since I last looked at E&M in GA so none are coming to mind right now.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by posix_me_less on Saturday November 03, 2018 @05:54AM (#18369447)
How do you "just 'rotate'" bivector into accelerated frame? Because if you're talking about Lorentz transformations between inertial frames, those alone can't give you radiation fields.

To get radiation fields, you need Maxwell's equations and boundary conditions. When you have those, what is the use of GA?

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by eigenspace on Saturday November 03, 2018 @01:58PM (#18371530)
Yes, it seems I have oversimplified things. My apologies, it's been a little while. Instead of the prescription I described, here is what one must do:

1) Start with the Coulomb potential A(r) = qγ₀/(4πr)

2) make it covariant by replacing r -> r -> X⋅γ₀ where X = r(γ₀ + γᵣ). This is a trivial transformation in the static frame as one can easily show X⋅γ₀ == r, but it's important as it encodes the causal information you astutely pointed out is vital to obtaining radiation solutions.

This gives A(r) = qγ₀/(4π X⋅γ₀)

3) Now, one can 'rotate' this to a frame with (not necessarily constant) velocity v via A'(r) = R A(R̃ x R) R̃ ie. evaluate the rotated A at inverse rotate spacetime position. Then

A'(r) = q v/(4π X⋅v)

This is the Liénard–Wiechert potential (this can also be obtained by solving ∇²A = J using the retarded Green's function G(r, t) = δ(|r|-t)/(4π|r|).

4) Now once can get the radiation fields by taking the derivative of this and doing some algebra:

F = ∇A = (q/4π) (X ∧ v + ½ X(v̇ ∧ v)X)/(X⋅v)³

The term proportional to X ∧ v is just the Coulomb field, but the term with the X(v̇ ∧ v)X is the radiation field which one can show propagates to infinity.

This is unfortunately much less elegant and straightforward than I let on initially so I apologize.

I still think this has advantages over standard treatments but your milage may vary.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by keldaris on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:46PM (#18367663)
That's a neat example, thanks!
Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by wolfgke on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:29PM (#18367570)
> You can't just throw them in a GA-based E&M class without completely changing the entire curriculum first.

Preparing for the additional requirements of the lectures of the coming semester is whar the semester break is for.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by jacobolus on Friday November 02, 2018 @08:03PM (#18367736)
Nah, you really want to start students learning the GA formalism in their linear algebra and vector calculus classes, if not in high school.

Especially important in high school is to dive into not only the “complex numbers” but also the “split complex numbers”.

Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by keldaris on Friday November 02, 2018 @07:33PM (#18367594)
Sure, as long as you don't expect anyone to complete the course or are willing to play catch up for most of the semester. In other words, I'd love to plan courses that way, but no university administrator would ever let me (instead I restrict myself to graduate seminars and beyond).
Re:Let's remove Quaternions from every 3D Engine by bsder on Friday November 02, 2018 @08:01PM (#18367729)
How does Geometric Algebra link into the 4-vector representation of E&M?

https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/collective-electrodynamics