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Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by darawk on Thursday November 01, 2018 @03:33AM (#18351955)
Why do you think these won't work? I would think they have a dataset that they're validating them on if they're calling it "AI".

I think it's unlikely that they'll be perfect, but they may very well be good enough to filter people for further, more intensive screening.

Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by coldtea on Thursday November 01, 2018 @03:54AM (#18352024)
>Why do you think these won't work? I would think they have a dataset that they're validating them on if they're calling it "AI".

You'd be surprised. AI is just a catch-all marketing term, see for example IBM's Watson umbrella brand, that's sold like advanced AI but has had tons of fiascos, and is shown to be different sets of often simplistic implementations.

E.g: https://www.massdevice.com/report-ibm-watson-delivered-unsaf...

https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-human-os/robotics/artificial-i...

https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/26/17619382/ibms-watson-canc...

Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by darawk on Thursday November 01, 2018 @11:49AM (#18355142)
You're saying these things won't work because IBM misused the word 'AI'?
Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by notahacker on Thursday November 01, 2018 @12:27PM (#18355621)
No, he's saying that we've seen all kinds of absolute garbage marketed using the words 'AI' (Watson is at the relatively complex and useful end of the spectrum) so your suggestion that this project's use of 'AI' as a marketing term implies anything about whether they have an adequate dataset to validate it on is frankly hilarious.

In this case, there's excellent reason to be sceptical about whether the service has a remotely adequate dataset, because even if lie detection were a simple problem, how on earth are you going to get calibration data involving hundreds of data points of real airline passengers lying about having weapons in their luggage or intending to overstay their visa? Never mind calibration data by gender, ethnicity and nationality...

Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by darawk on Thursday November 01, 2018 @04:15PM (#18357979)
> No, he's saying that we've seen all kinds of absolute garbage marketed using the words 'AI' (Watson is at the relatively complex and useful end of the spectrum) so your suggestion that this project's use of 'AI' as a marketing term implies anything about whether they have an adequate dataset to validate it on is frankly hilarious.

Usually when people say 'AI', IBM included, what they mean is fairly trivial machine learning. Machine learning requires a dataset to learn on.

> In this case, there's excellent reason to be sceptical about whether the service has a remotely adequate dataset, because even if lie detection were a simple problem, how on earth are you going to get calibration data involving hundreds of data points of real airline passengers lying about having weapons in their luggage or intending to overstay their visa?

You could do it by watching film of interactions with border agents when it is still unknown whether or not the person was lying, and then use whether or not they were caught smuggling (or whatever) ex-post as your ground truth.

Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by notahacker on Thursday November 01, 2018 @05:40PM (#18358733)
> You could do it by watching film of interactions with border agents when it is still unknown whether or not the person was lying, and then use whether or not they were caught smuggling (or whatever) ex-post as your ground truth.

You're going to need a lot of film. Good luck picking the controls for that that ensure your ML system picks up on subtle differences in humans that are lying and not glaringly obvious differences in appearance, accent and even background noise between the footage of the convicts and the control group...

Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by darawk on Thursday November 01, 2018 @10:38PM (#18360294)
> You're going to need a lot of film. Good luck picking the controls for that that ensure your ML system picks up on subtle differences in humans that are lying and not glaringly obvious differences in appearance, accent and even background noise between the footage of the convicts and the control group...

I assume you would isolate the people in pre-processing, and do feature extraction of things you might think are interested in. Yes, it'd still require a lot of data, but that data may exist somewhere. A lot of these things are filmed.

Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by coldtea on Friday November 02, 2018 @01:22AM (#18360877)
If anybody had working lie detecting AI, border control pilot in Greece and Hungary (as per TFA) is the last place you'd see it used.

From CIA, and TSA, to your local police department, everybody would have jumped all over it.

This is some vendor managing to sell some BS to bureaucrats (probably with the required bribes).

Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by darawk on Friday November 02, 2018 @11:58AM (#18364003)
> From CIA, and TSA, to your local police department, everybody would have jumped all over it.

If CIA had it, you wouldn't hear about it. I don't see any reason why these countries couldn't pilot it for their border security before TSA, though.

FWIW, polygraphs are still used for security clearance screening. So, they are at least accurate enough for that use. They get a bad rep because they aren't admissible in court, but it's not like they have zero correlation to truth telling. They are still quite accurate.

Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by coldtea on Friday November 02, 2018 @04:21AM (#18361397)
No, I'm saying people selling something as "AI" doesn't mean:

a) it'll work,

b) it's actually any sort of AI,

and that, for example, even reputable companies like IBM can peddle all kind of shit as AI.

So, IBM was used as an example of a common practice, not as some logical axiom that "because they did it, nothing AI will ever work". Example != logical necessity.

It does, however cast doubt, especially for such a thorny problem as "lie detection", that nobody has, thus far, solved.

Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by darawk on Friday November 02, 2018 @12:00PM (#18364011)
Well, let's back up. Lie detection is not completely unsolved. Polygraphs are used extensively by security services for clearance screening. They are reasonably good barometers of truth telling. They are not good enough to be admissible in court, but that doesn't mean they have no correlation to the truth.

Even if all this "AI" does is match the quality of a polygraph, it is probably extremely useful in screening people rapidly at the border.

Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by dagw on Thursday November 01, 2018 @04:13AM (#18352082)
I would think they have a dataset that they're validating them on if they're calling it "AI".

You obviously don't work for IBM :)

A skilled IBM Watson sales consultant as capable of selling simple linear regressions as Big Data AI!

Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by bryanrasmussen on Thursday November 01, 2018 @08:05AM (#18353131)
You know with a big enough corpus of successful sales I think we should be able to train our Sales-Bot to sell simple linear regressions as Big Data AI!
Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by stochastic_monk on Thursday November 01, 2018 @08:58AM (#18353434)
I wish that machine learning wasn’t being mislabeled as AI. It’s pattern recognition, not intelligence.
Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by dagw on Thursday November 01, 2018 @09:14AM (#18353554)
It’s pattern recognition, not intelligence.

While I don't disagree that "AI" as a term is being abused, the distinction you're making seems very much a philosophical one.

Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by gnulinux on Thursday November 01, 2018 @09:29AM (#18353673)
One could argue intelligence is pattern recognition. One important aspect of human intelligence is neocortex -- a part of brain -- that exists in all mammals and mammals only. It serves as a pattern recognizer in mammal brains that helps them recognize certain sound, day/night, visual patterns etc...
Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by darawk on Thursday November 01, 2018 @11:52AM (#18355173)
Of course. All i'm saying is that presumably they've at least cross-validated that linear regression.
Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by realusername on Thursday November 01, 2018 @03:54AM (#18352026)
All the lie detection methods I've seen are based on questionable science with high false positive rates, there's no known method to know for sure if someone is lying and I don't see how adding "AI" on top of it will change that.
Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by deft on Thursday November 01, 2018 @03:54AM (#18352027)
You mean exactly how existing lie detectors claim to work? They slapped AI on an old concept (that isn't useful and has been proven to be worthless a million times over).
Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by darawk on Thursday November 01, 2018 @11:51AM (#18355167)
Existing lie detectors use a bunch of information like pulse, and galvanic skin response. Presumably this device is not hooked up to people enough to do that, so I don't think it's using the exact same metrics. Also, polygraphs work decently well actually. Just not well enough to be used as evidence in court.
Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by TeMPOraL on Thursday November 01, 2018 @12:19PM (#18355530)
> I would think they have a dataset that they're validating them on if they're calling it "AI".

Where did they get that dataset from? Did they ask a bunch of people a bunch of questions and then hired private investigators to verify the answers (and then hire extra investigators to cross-verify answers given by the previous bunch)? Because beyond something like this, there's no known way to create such a dataset.

Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by darawk on Thursday November 01, 2018 @12:23PM (#18355565)
I've considered this. You could create the dataset by looking at interviews with people caught smuggling, before they were caught. Or similar for any criminal activity.
Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by sincerely on Thursday November 01, 2018 @12:49PM (#18355902)
Honestly creating that dataset would be the easiest part of this. Just ask people questions that you already know the answer to.
Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by yarrel on Thursday November 01, 2018 @06:05AM (#18352441)
The imperfection is large enough to cause serious concern.
Re:An AI Lie Detector Is Going to Start Questioning Traveler... by darawk on Thursday November 01, 2018 @11:50AM (#18355147)
You know what the error rate on these devices is?