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Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by cle on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:28PM (#18342671)
Is this a serious comment? How do we communicate without advertisements?

This is depressing.

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by softwaredoug on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:42PM (#18342731)
Why is political speech a different category than other forms of speech?

Think of the plausible scenario of a certain Presidents FEC deciding friendly speech isn’t “political” (it’s “patriotic”!) But critical speech is clearly political and should be regulated.

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by esturk on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @10:54PM (#18343016)
Thanks. Your above says advertisement, you said speech. Thats a big difference. Advertisement can be regulated which is the focus of this thread. No one is saying to regulate some speech in a rally but is said speech is reshape as some advertisment then they should be regulated.
Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by k_sh on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @12:15AM (#18343310)
For the purposes of American law, "speech" is defined very broadly. It can apply to burning an American flag[0], plans for 3-D printed guns[1], and even bombmaking instructions[2].

Our Supreme Court has decided that corporations spending money[3], even in politics[4], is speech as well.

The O'Brien test[5] is generally used to tell whether a law encroaches on 1A rights.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._Johnson [1]: http://joshblackman.com/blog/2018/07/10/doj-second-amendment... [2]: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/raisethefist/archive/abi.htm [3]: https://www.freedomforuminstitute.org/first-amendment-center... [4]: http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/citizens-united-v... [5]: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/obrient...

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by bluecalm on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @04:06AM (#18344013)
You need even more money to organize rallies, get anyone to report on them and to get any airtime for yourself. Advertising is much cheaper and easier way to get people to look at your ideas.

Banning political advertising is just a play to strengthen incumbents and hurt new comers. I also think it's morally wrong. It's "you should not try to influence others by yourself - only government approved channels are ok and maybe you will get a minute a day if you're already visible in the polls" kind of law. It's censorship reminding me of Soviet days. Europe is terrible when it comes to freedom of expression. Blasphemy laws are another example of prosecuting speech some groups don't like.

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by softwaredoug on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @11:35AM (#18346563)
That doesn’t change the fundamental problem. Regulating advertising for political content is a slippery slope that lets some people decide what is “political” and what is not.
Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by cle on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @01:28AM (#18343557)
This is orthogonal to my point. I'm just surprised (disappointed?) at how some people think it's so inconceivable to communicate without advertisements.
Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by bluecalm on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @04:10AM (#18344030)
It's politics. How do you convince millions of people to look at your ideas and yourself without ads? You need to be a billionaire to organize rallies in major cities and that will still be less effective than ads. You're only getting airtime if you're an incumbent or already popular. Internet made it possible to get attention of millions of people relatively cheaply. No wonder it's in the interest of ruling elite to ban doing that.
Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by pessimizer on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:50PM (#18343201)
Why is insider trading a different category than other forms of speech?

Why is paying someone to murder someone a different category than other forms of speech?

Why are intentionally deceptive drug advertisements a different category than other forms of speech?

Why is pointing a gun at someone and telling them to do something a different category than other types of speech?

I'm going to claim that it's because these forms of speech enable types of coordination and coercion that corrupt processes and structures that we deem essential for the operation of society. So, pragmatic reasons.

Placing limits on the payments, direct or indirect (a dollar I spend is a dollar a candidate doesn't have to spend), that can be made to aid people in gaining a position that places them in charge of allocating public resources, that's something that very few people seriously argue against. What they argue about is what those limits should be.

You can make an argument that payments to candidates and government officials should be allowed, but making absolutist arguments that something is speech and therefore must be permitted isn't serious. Payments to a television station to run an ad that you financed the production of is surely less worthy of being called speech than calling in a bomb threat is - at least the bomb threat is using your mouth to say a thing. Speech, instead, is what we define to be speech. If it's to encompass all expression, you might as well call selling cigarettes without a tax stamp speech.

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by k_sh on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @12:12AM (#18343302)
> Why is insider trading a different category than other forms of speech?

The speech isn't illegal - the act of trading based on insider information is. This works in a similar manner to bomb-making plans being legal to disseminate, but making a bomb being very illegal.

> Why is paying someone to murder someone a different category than other forms of speech?

This is solicitation to commit a crime, which is a specific exception to the 1A.

> Why are intentionally deceptive drug advertisements a different category than other forms of speech?

This is a false statement of fact, which is a specific exception to the 1A.

> Why is pointing a gun at someone and telling them to do something a different category than other types of speech?

Pointing a gun isn't speech, it's coercion.

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @12:53AM (#18343457)
> The speech isn't illegal - the act of trading based on insider information is.

The act of paying for something. That's not a very helpful distinction to make when the proposal is not being able to pay for certain ads.

> This is a false statement of fact, which is a specific exception to the 1A.

Political ads are deceptive all the time.

And what does "specific exception" mean? Specified by what?

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by JdeBP on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @09:45AM (#18345614)
Herewith the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, wherein one will find no specific exceptions actually made.

* https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/bill-of-rights-transc...

Enjoy.

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by manigandham on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @12:08PM (#18346902)
That's not how this works. The constitution and amendments are the foundation. There are centuries of supreme court rulings and further legal precedent that determine the modern framework.

Free speech does have certain restrictions, which you can easily read about here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by JdeBP on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @12:35PM (#18347152)
Actually, it is how it works. You are confusing case law with what k_sh actually claimed, which was specific exceptions. There do exist U.S. constitutional provisions with specific exceptions, such as the 5th Amendment. The 1st Amendment is not one of them. Indeed, it is famous for being neither specific nor having clear exceptions.

Contrast with the Basic Law of Germany article 5, that has already come up in this discussion, which outlines specific exceptions in paragraph 2. (For another example, see article 8.)

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by manigandham on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @02:53PM (#18348313)
Incorrect. What is being discussed are the applicable rules to citizens today, and the cumulative legislation states that there are exceptions. We do not follow only the constitution and bill of rights, otherwise what do you think the thousands of other laws are doing exactly?

Real exceptions exist, regardless of whether they are written in the original amendment text or in rulings afterward.

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @05:57PM (#18349591)
The exceptions are 'real', but they're fuzzy, they change over time, and they're not in the constitution itself. They're the opposite of 'specific'.
Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by manigandham on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @07:06PM (#18349956)
The amendments themselves are not in the constitution itself, so do they not apply?

Amendments were added to the body of laws after the constitution, and congress and the supreme court have since added more to the body of laws after the amendments. The cumulative result is what governs citizens today.

Those laws are in fact very specific about their exceptions, as shown very clearly in the wikipedia link. What exactly do you find fuzzy or confusing about them?

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @09:58PM (#18350906)
The amendments are part of the constitution.

Case law, as you linked, is not. It also keeps changing without the underlying documents changing. I don't know how you can look at all those dates marking times high courts had to get involved and still say it's clear.

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by gumby on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @10:02PM (#18342797)
I don't understand -- getting a message out is advertising by definition.

Not everyone attends a rally and not every rally is (or needs to be) covered in the news.

Also: in the US parties are less powerful (and not even mentioned in the constitution) so each candidate is presented individually and it's up to that candidate to bring up whichever issues (local or national) that they consider relevant. There is nothing like the party list system. So the structure of elections are quite different from the ones in, say, France or Germany.

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by Retric on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @10:14PM (#18342833)
No, getting your message out is marketing, advertising is a subset of paid marketing. Press releases that get picked up by news agency’s is a great example of the difference.
Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by manigandham on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @10:26PM (#18342884)
How do you communicate to millions of people then? What is your strategy? Visit every single person's home?
Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by cle on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @01:24AM (#18343538)
Do you not recognize the irony of asking this question on Hacker News? And for an additional layer of irony, Hacker News doesn't advertise either (that I'm aware of).
Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by bluecalm on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @04:15AM (#18344039)
HN regularly ban/kill political topics. Good or bad some topics don't belong here even if popular among users. Things like: "I want to be a governorn of Y region or representative of X country, here is my program" either won't get any traction or be killed. Buying ads is the cheapest and most effective way of getting eyes to your ideas. It's great it became more accessible. No wonder ruling elites in Europe want it banned tough.
Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by enitihas on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @02:56AM (#18343800)
Actually HN does advertise. Just yesterday I saw an add in the Google search bar for "news.ycombinator.com" on Firefox focus while searching "hacker news".
Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by manigandham on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @11:34AM (#18346561)
No. Irony implies expectation.

Do you expect people are all going to come online, visit HN or other forums, and then discuss politics willingly with potential candidates?

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by ddingus on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @01:34AM (#18343573)
Do what that progressive in New York did to challenge the #4 Democrat in the house and win. (Osario-Cortez)

She did exactly that.

Campaign was as follows:

Identify policy platform and benefit to winning majority of voters.

Identify win numbers.

Two of hers were Medicare for All and Living Wages.

Organize volunteers to canvass. Break it down and insure coverage.

Canvass, hold events, town hall, rallies, etc...

Continue, until win numbers plausibly met.

Continue.

Win election, which she did.

The beauty of that campaign is the strategy I put here was announced and implemented. All well ahead of the election. Was nearly a two year effort.

No big money, no big media, no extensive marketing campaign.

The single most important thing that team did was actually ask people for their votes.

A ton of campaigns do not actually do that. They imply and or talk about how bad it can be if you do not vote.

Big difference. And it takes much more of a spend to do too.

This works at any scale.

Sanders showed it in 2016. Same overall approach.

Won 22 States and 45 percent of Delegates doing mostly that.

On a national level, some AD spends are needed, but are not the core of the campaign.

People to people politics work, but that is a clear vote for politicking, not the usual vote against we see most of the time.

On FOR type issues, very large numbers of people will invest FOR, because they see a clear return potential.

Without that, yes more ADS and such are needed, because the ask for vote part is not as prominent, often implied.

My point here is we totally have ways of politicking that work and do not require massive political contributions and or ADS.

I perfer them and would gladly regulate political ADS.

Do the same for perscription drugs, just because doing that makes about as much sense.

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by bluecalm on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @04:18AM (#18344046)
All those things are very expensive and someone without significant backing won't be able to afford them. Ads are cheaper and more effective, especially when you're just starting and don't know if you should invest more of your time and money.
Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by ddingus on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @09:47AM (#18345630)
Buying votes is way more expensive than asking for them is. About 30 people are in these mid term general elections doing exactly what I put there. None of them have significant means. Most of them beat the people doing it "the very expensive way."

You are not wrong, buying an office is not cheap. People lacking significant backing, or personal means cannot afford to do that.

That is not the only way to do politicking.

I am not wrong either.

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by bluecalm on Thursday November 01, 2018 @12:14AM (#18351405)
It's not about buying the office. It's about getting your message to be seen without investing huge resources. No one with a job can afford organizing rallies and laying significant groundwork unless they are already rich, backed by major party or otherwise having most of their time free to do political activity. Ads are cheap way to try to get people to look at your message. It challenges monopoly of the media and gives platform to new players.

I am not sure why you talk about buying votes. Getting people to look at your message is not buying votes. Making crazy promises like free cash for everyone or flats for everyone as human right is.

Re:We posed as 100 Senators to run ads on Facebook. Facebook... by ddingus on Thursday November 01, 2018 @02:33AM (#18351799)
Untrue.

Again, there are people in general elections who did exactly what I put here.

There are mutiple ways of politicking out there.