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Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by lurquer on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @05:49PM (#18341562)
Indeed. I had to reread that paragraph. That's a LOT of helium (by volume).

"So, i noticed some of the workers' iwatch's weren't registering the users' heart-rates. At first, I thought it was because they had all died from suffocation from the massive gas leak. But, then I discovered something interesting... it was actually the helium molecules worming their way into the internal clock chip! Amazing day."

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by SilasX on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @07:00PM (#18341969)
Yeah, but at the same time, it wasn't enough to set off the alarms for low oxygen content, which is at least a little disturbing, right?
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by hinkley on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @07:44PM (#18342193)
Not necessarily.

Nobody could adequately explain to those of us in the CS dept why we had to take 3 semesters of Chemistry. Bits of it hung on and from other sources such as space exploration articles I recall this much:

Fires and lungs both operate on partial pressure of oxygen. As long as nothing else in the air is toxic, your body cares that it gets X oxygen molecules per cubic centimeter of air in your lungs, not Y parts per million. Those deep sea submariners are breathing mostly helium with a small fraction of oxygen in it. If you just compressed surface air there would be so much oxygen that your hair would explode when you ran your hand through it. Assuming the electronics didn't burst into flames first. And if you didn't set yourself on fire, that much nitrogen would kill you pretty quick.

So the question is, does helium displace air or mix in with it? I believe the answer is 'some of both'. If that's the case (and I think we can infer that from "the alarms didn't go off") then a good amount of helium might reduce the oxygen partial pressure less than going to 3000 feet above sea level. So what's the Venn diagram of COPD sufferers, in a hospital wing near the MRI machine, that aren't currently on supplemental oxygen?

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by kijin on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @08:19PM (#18342388)
Moreover, helium floats to the top and escapes through any opening (staircases, HVAC ducts, gaps in ceiling tiles) because it is lighter than air. This makes it much less dangerous than a heavier gas such as CO2 even if there's enough of it to displace a significant amount of air.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by akiselev on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @08:25PM (#18342419)
Not just any opening: just about any microscopic crack would let it out and most non-metal materials are effectively porous when trying to contain helium under pressure. It's even used to detect leaks in high vacuum chambers.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by Pulcinella on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:13PM (#18342625)
You don’t even need cracks. Helium (and hydrogen) can diffuse through metal, especially at high temperatures. Hydrogen embrittlement is a problem for processes that use high temp hiydrogen like the Haber process.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by DoctorOetker on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @04:29PM (#18349026)
how is it typically dealt with? regular annealing?
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by Pulcinella on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @07:37PM (#18350152)
I’m not sure about in modern processes, but Bosch’s original solution for the Haber-Bosch industrial process was to just periodical replace an expendable steel liner in the reaction vessel.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by brianpgordon on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:22PM (#18343103)
That is not true by any stretch of the imagination. If gases behaved like that then we'd all be choking on a layer of argon with all of the oxygen out of reach above us. No, gases diffuse and mix easily.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by kijin on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @04:10AM (#18344028)
Gases diffuse and mix given enough time. There's not enough time when you have a massive indoor gas leak.

Even outdoors, large amounts of CO2 tend to sink to the ground and suffocate people in low-lying areas. Look up Lake Nyos for a particularly grizzly example of that.

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by nradov on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:25PM (#18343113)
Helium breathing mixes are for deep sea divers, not submariners. Most submarines run an interior gas mix nearly identical to regular air.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by hinkley on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @01:10AM (#18343507)
I didn’t mean navy boys, I meant research submarines at extreme depth.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by nradov on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @01:20AM (#18343530)
Research submarines at extreme depths also use regular air. There's really no benefit to helium mixes for submarines. The breathing gas isn't compressed, it's at about 1 bar.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by lxmorj on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @01:54AM (#18343619)
Odd, I assumed that subs would run at least a few atmospheres to compensate for pressure differential. Structural assistance not worth giving the crew the bends on fast ascents?
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by garmaine on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @02:41AM (#18343751)
Why bother with 2-3x more air pressure and all the problems that go with it (crew decompression, lack of abort options, etc.) when the outside pressure is hundreds or thousands of times more? You're really not gaining anything engineering-wise.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by raviolo on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @04:11AM (#18344032)
One thousand times would make it 10km depth - so clearly not “thousands”. Other than that you are right that there is no gain in e.g. doubling the internal pressure.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by garmaine on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @12:34PM (#18347144)
Yes I made a mistake in my estimation there. Max pressure at the challenger deep is about 1,000 atmosphere, so that shouldn’t have been plural.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by MauranKilom on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @02:42PM (#18348221)
The pressure outside is +1 bar per 10 meters. If you're 1 km deep, that's 100 bars (+1 atmospheric bar) while it's ~1 bar inside the sub. The mechanical stress on the submarine depends on the pressure difference, not the ratio. So increasing air pressure (with all the complications and risks it would bring) would only reduce the material load by a few percentage points.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by hinkley on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @07:21PM (#18350052)
Then why all the videos of people who sound like garden gnomes?
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by nradov on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:08AM (#18397404)
Which videos?
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by Pulcinella on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:14PM (#18342627)
I assume the first two semesters were first-year (freshman) chemistry. What was the third year? Organic?
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by pjscott on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @07:12PM (#18342029)
As long as there is enough oxygen in the air, what's disturbing about it? People breathe helium/nitrogen/oxygen mixtures all the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimix_(breathing_gas)

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by SilasX on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @07:17PM (#18342064)
I didn't mean that the air would be dangerous to breathe.

I meant that it's disturbing that the amount of He needed to disable the iPhone is low enough that the standard sensors around He (which measure 02 levels) don't regard it as a major leak for He to be at that level.

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by blihp on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @08:49PM (#18342522)
Virtually all (esp. consumer) devices assume 'normal' atmospheric conditions with 'normal' temperature ranges and 'normal' humidity ranges. As you start to go outside those ranges, strange things can happen. People at extreme altitudes and/or in extreme climates see this on some types of devices. It's not a big deal. If you have needs outside the typical ranges, you provide your specifications and be prepared to pay much more for your solution.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by jakevn on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @07:23PM (#18342094)
Why would that be disturbing? Electronics and organisms do not have identical environmental tolerances/intolerances.

Presumably, the sensors exist to protect humans, not electronics.

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by SilasX on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @11:04AM (#18346267)
A device-disabling threat that normal threat sensors can't detect, even when those sensors have been deployed because of the chance of unusually high levels of that threat?

Yes, I'm allowed to be disturbed by that; why wouldn't you be?

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by crankylinuxuser on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:16PM (#18342633)
Not at all.

The devices are tested for usual STP. Nothing else, unless specified. They are done so not for human comfort, but for tested conditions. No more.

If you want extreme conditions, pay through the nose.

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by bsder on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @07:16PM (#18342056)
Helium, unlike carbon dioxide, is lighter than both oxygen and nitrogen, so it would rise in the rooms and be very unlikely to displace oxygen in people and set off any oxygen alarms.

In addition, unlike carbon monoxide, helium doesn't bind to, well, anything and certainly not hemoglobin, so it doesn't present a momentary exposure hazard either.

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by SilasX on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @07:18PM (#18342071)
See other reply -- I wasn't referring to danger to humans.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by SilasX on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @12:06AM (#18343276)
What the heck? I clarified that I was concerned about the silent danger to the iPhone, not to humans, and people keep assuring me there’s no danger to humans, and giving me flack just for saying that wasn’t my concern? This is a weird thread.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by bsder on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @03:47AM (#18343948)
Quoting you:

> Yeah, but at the same time, it wasn't enough to set off the alarms for low oxygen content, which is at least a little disturbing, right?

First, alarms for low oxygen content are set for people and no other reason. There can be alarms for high oxygen content, but they are extremely rare and would likely not be present in very many places in a hospital.

Second, why in the world would low oxygen be a danger to an iPhone?

You can't make a complete non-sequitur of a logic leap and then expect everybody to be on board your train of thought.

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by SilasX on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @09:08AM (#18345315)
I wasn’t comaplining about that, but for getting to -3 for pointing to a reply where I clarified the concern.

Furthermore, comments were rolling in assuring me of the nonthreat to humans after I clarified.

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by Dylan16807 on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @02:33AM (#18343731)
You called it "disturbing", so the clarification that you were not intentionally implying any danger whatsoever is kind of annoying.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by SilasX on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @09:10AM (#18345321)
“Device disabling threats that aren’t detectable by the usual sensors” can’t count as “disturbing” because a human didn’t die?
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by Dylan16807 on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @04:19PM (#18348955)
"threat" the way UV light is. So no, not disturbing for it to silently ignore the equivalent of popping a party balloon.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by SilasX on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @04:55PM (#18349227)
Bricking your iPhone for a week-plus is not the equivalent of popping a party balloon or a short dose of UV light!

And yes, I get it, the sensor exists to detect for threats to life, not threats to iphones. But that's the point: this is a threat we're not set up to watch for at all -- hence why it took so much investigation to root-cause it!

Are you still going to make it your hill-to-die-on that it's "not disturbing"?

Come to think of it, did that "lack of faith" scene in Star Wars (1977) also seem confusing to you?

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by Dylan16807 on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @05:51PM (#18349562)
> Bricking your iPhone for a week-plus is not the equivalent of popping a party balloon or a short dose of UV light!

You totally misunderstood my comment.

I mentioned popping a party balloon because it could also disable your phone. And UV light because it can also destroy certain electronics. But sensors that can pick up little bits of UV are normally not set to warn about it, and that's perfectly reasonable and not "disturbing".

We can use a different word if you want. You think it's a [significant] problem and I don't think it's a problem. Is that better?

I'm not here to die on the hill of word choice. I disagree with your underlying opinion.

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by SilasX on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @06:30PM (#18349760)
Sorry -- do you have a citation on that? If popping party balloons could disable iphones, I think we'd hear about it more often. (I can't find anything about it on a quick search, and I hope I can be excused for missing an analogy that depended on an invalid premise!)

What made it unnoticed for so long was that it required the much larger MRI He release to trigger. What (I claim) makes it disturbing is that an expensive incident can happen (bricking a hospital's iphones for weeks) at levels that no one currently calibrates sensors to check for, because no one expects that level to have a negative effect of such magnitude.

Regardless of your preferred terminology, it seems odd to take an attitude of "oh, it only deleted everyone's second-brain for week, in a way that was hard to root-cause, no one died, no big deal" and therefore balk at the use of "disturbing".

I mean, do you consider undetectable, inexpensive phone-bricking techniques to be generally "non-disturbing", or just this one?

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by Dylan16807 on Wednesday October 31, 2018 @09:58PM (#18350908)
> Sorry -- do you have a citation on that? If popping party balloons could disable iphones, I think we'd hear about it more often. (I can't find anything about it on a quick search, and I hope I can be excused for missing an analogy that depended on an invalid premise!)

Some of the tests were just plastic bags with tiny amounts of helium in them. Unless you're asserting some exceptionally strange gas physics here, you can break an iphone with some balloons.

> Regardless of your preferred terminology, it seems odd to take an attitude of "oh, it only deleted everyone's second-brain for week, in a way that was hard to root-cause, no one died, no big deal" and therefore balk at the use of "disturbing".

> I mean, do you consider undetectable, inexpensive phone-bricking techniques to be generally "non-disturbing", or just this one?

Hang on. You were calling the calibration of the air quality sensors disturbing. That's what I objected to. I wasn't making any claims about the iphone bug itself.

Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by ChuckMcM on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:45PM (#18342743)
And nobody was talking like Donald Duck either so I would guess it was leaking out of the room at a pretty hefty rate.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by tomrod on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:30PM (#18342680)
Depends on where the sensors are located. If at head height, the helium may occupy the layer above and tall people would have a hard time.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by lurquer on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @07:16PM (#18342055)
Sadly, the plant used Apple's iSensors which don't work in the presence of helium.
Re:iPhones are allergic to helium by therein on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @06:40PM (#18341865)
What a relief that must have been.