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Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by thereisnospork on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @03:38PM (#18286700)
Sure we could curtail CO2 emissions, but that means lowering people's quality of life which is a hard sell.
Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by astrodust on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @04:12PM (#18286999)
A 4°C increase in temperature will lower people's quality of life a whole lot more than any minor inconvenience you'll have to endure in the short term.

If the government had any backbone at all they'd rally people around the idea of committing to it and getting it done. In World War II people lowered their "quality of life" to support the cause. It can be done.

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by graeme on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @06:36PM (#18288107)
This is true, but I fear the time horizons are too long for mass human psychology. WWII was a short term emergency. That seems to be what springs people to action.

Incentives are another way. I still think a global carbon tax agreement would be a good idea: companies work together to implement carbon taxes and cut income taxes or a local equivalent. That helps eliminat the problem of production offshoring to cheaper carbon areas, and gived incentives to alternatives.

Actually making carbon economically unviable with our psychology works, obviously. I really, really hope we can figure out something else cheaper.

Finally, if we had a carbon sequestering method with no major side effects and clear costs, it would be psychologically easier to charge fossil burning industries and activities the cost of the CO2 emitted. Eg a fee of $30 per ton if that's the cost of sequestering. Of course, you'd need a way to measure the carbon impact of the sequestering, to make sure that process wasn't indirectly emitting carbon.

Reducing would also be highly useful, and I hope we will, but enpirically we don't seem to be built for it without some mechanism like what I described above. It's terrifying and dispiriting and I hope we figure out a way to work around our broken mass psychology.

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by graeme on Wednesday October 24, 2018 @05:56AM (#18290998)
Can't edit, but should have been "countries work together to implement carbon taxes", not companies.
Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by rootusrootus on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @05:47PM (#18287816)
That's not exactly how it works, of course. The people did not lower their quality of life to support the cause, per se, they did it to vanquish Those People. An actual enemy to focus on. And a pretty short timeline. Now you'd ask people to declare war on their own quality of life to fight a consequence which is necessarily vague over a timeline that likely exceeds the remaining lifespan of half of everyone alive today.

Good luck.

In the meantime I sure would like to try some mitigation techniques.

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by bmsleight_ on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @05:23PM (#18287627)
The government of the people, by the people, for the people.

We get what we vote for, for need to vote for backbones.

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by wallace_f on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @03:58PM (#18286877)
Studies on happiness--as hard as that is to objectively study--show it is more closely related to social status than absolute and total consumption.

In other words, the SUV or sports car apparently has more to do with making people happy by making them look to be of higher social status than the actual utility of those goods.

This is also demonstrated in the South Park episode Smug, which criticizes hybrids. From a public policy perspective, the greatest reduction in CO2 comes from getting people into economical cars (like a 42+mpg --or higher in EU models--Civic) rather than in necessarily Hybrids or electrics which not everyone can afford. The greatest co2/$ reduced is actually going from average to a civic-like car.

Perhaps cultural changes away from materialism, as well as effective public policy may be important in reducing global warming.

But what we get is more "War on Poverty" style bureaucracies and activism which has become a self-perpetuating and wasteful industry of its own.

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by usaar333 on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @04:43PM (#18287295)
> Studies on happiness--as hard as that is to objectively study--show it is more closely related to social status than absolute and total consumption.

> In other words, the SUV or sports car apparently has more to do with making people happy by making them look to be of higher social status than the actual utility of those goods.

The first statement doesn't imply the second. Low social status can make someone unhappy, but that doesn't imply that consuming more doesn't make them happy.

In fact, I'm not even sure how much "materialism" is to blame for global warming. I know plenty of people who care more about "experiences" than "material goods" -- and in turn massively contribute to global warming by flying a lot. Equally, I don't view someone as wanting to live in a reasonably sized home in suburbia as necessarily materialistic, even though living there can introduce huge CO2 emissions from driving a lot.

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by astrodust on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @04:13PM (#18287007)
You can cut emissions even more by eliminating the need for cars, but as that would put a huge dent in the automotive-central industrial complex that is the United State, nothing short of apocalyptic conditions are going to make that happen.
Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by btilly on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @05:08PM (#18287494)
For talking about links between wealth and happiness, it matters greatly what absolute level of wealth you are talking about. Within first world countries, the link between between wealth and happiness is weak. But when comparing between countries that are rich versus on the brink of starvation, the correlation is one of the strongest known.

This may seem contradictory makes sense if you think of it in terms of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. If you are at the base level of meeting your physiological needs for food and shelter, wealth directly helps you meet those needs and makes them happier. If you can take care of that, the law and order that brings you safety is again correlated with being in a wealthier society. But beyond that, the correlation vanishes because wealth doesn't give you love, esteem or self-actualization.

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by wallace_f on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @05:14PM (#18287544)
I think that's correct afaik, and it reinforces what I was trying to say: most ghg emmissions come from the absolute wealthiest individuals on the planet who do not allocate these resources efficiently with respect to human welfare/pursuit of happiness.
Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by greglindahl on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @04:20PM (#18287089)
Do all methods of curtailing CO2 emissions lower people's quality of life?
Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by intended on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @06:28PM (#18288062)
Yes or they don’t work.

I’ve spent way to much time as lay man trying to penetrate Econ speak to get the issue, but the crux seems to be this:

Currently markets and goods don’t price the cost of economic damage into products.

So plastics are cheap as hell because they don’t reflect clean up costs.

This means we have plastic straws which are so cheap on a per unit basis, that you can sell 100s in a single bundle.

Saran Wrap, packaging plastic, tooth brushes, phones, pens, toothpicks, mugs, wires, buttons, and billions of other items are extremely cheap.

Now imagine if ALL of them went up by a small amount.

Then recall, that for the developing world the difference between a 0.01 cent plastic cost and 0.05, is an increase in packaging cost for cheap goods like single use detergent sachets, or single use shampoo packets.

Of course, this will directly reduce usage of those goods, which is the intended purpose, but the fact is that those goods being cheap means people can grow faster without worrying about the issues which arise.

Carbon curtailment is fundamentally energy consumptive. We will spend more energy to capture carbon. We would have to create a system which is carbon negative in itself (after power and maintenance costs are calculated), and then pay for the whole thing,

Taxing goods to price externalities is probably the most efficient way to achieve it.

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by greglindahl on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @08:07PM (#18288579)
So if I buy a car that has much better gas mileage, my quality of life is lowered?

If I buy a product that has less packaging, so there's less waste, my quality of life is lowered?

If I take up bicycling, and as a result drive less, is my quality of life lowered?

If the hotel I stay at starts using containers of soap instead of single-use packets, is my quality of life lowered?

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by intended on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @11:19PM (#18289443)
Those are all options and choices for a small fraction of humans at what is effectively the top of the pyramid.

In each case, those are choices made out of ZERO economic pressure. You can do that TODAY, without the need of us discussing carbon capture costs.

However, most people DOMT exercise that choice, either through necessity or preference.

For all of those people, an increase in oil prices mean that they have to choose between working and living in an affordable place. It means more Money out of the monthly budget which is not available for other things.

This is economically defined as a reduction in their quality of life.

Do consider that, For most of humanity, food, water, medicine, clothes are decisions separated by razor sharp margins. Owning a car is a distant dream.

Simply - If the cost of everything went up, and you thus has less disposable income to use, then your quality of life by definition has dropped.

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by AtlasBarfed on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @10:04PM (#18289115)
1) a car that truly gets fantastic gas mileage is small and aerodynamic to the point it loses many practical features of a traditional car

2) If the packaging results in greater spoilage, reduces stimulated demand, or is more expensive to produce than cheap plastic

3) more time to do things, less ability to transport equipment and goods

4) you're being moronic at this point

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by smolder on Wednesday October 24, 2018 @08:31AM (#18291818)
Only based on the idea of QoL that comes from economics, where it's measured by money exchanged. That's the less important definition, IMO, just a poor approximation of real QoL.
Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by BeefySwain on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @03:42PM (#18286734)
For first world countries? Sure. For developing countries, we are talking mass starvation and death.

I guess that could be considered "lowering people's quality of life" though.

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by beat on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @04:38PM (#18287253)
The global rate of extreme poverty has dropped from 29% 20 years ago to less than 9% today. You need a solid argument for how these actions would reverse the incredible drop in poverty and start us in the other direction, not just the usual factually wrong conventional wisdom.
Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by intended on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @06:33PM (#18288087)
Extrme poverty is a razors edge from just poverty, and that growth has been driven by magic substances like plastic.

A classic example of economic growth innovation in price sensitive India is the single use detergent sachet- each of those represents an improvement in cleanliness and hygiene for people who couldn’t afford it before.

Now increase the cost of plastic, even marginally and that change reverberates down the product chain.

Everything from medicine packaging, to Saran Wrap to those single use sachets change in price.

However, the correct point is that if we don’t do anything, what will happen to that number? Is it truly conceivable that climate change will not send more people into poverty eventually?

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by njarboe on Wednesday October 24, 2018 @12:21AM (#18289711)
Why do you think the plastic production has much to do with CO2 emissions? While it takes energy to produce the oil and transform it into plastic, if that energy is CO2 free, producing plastic won't put CO2 into the atmosphere. Unless there is some trick to plastic manufacturing that requires blasts CO2 into the air like steel production does that I am not aware of.
Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by beat on Wednesday October 24, 2018 @10:40AM (#18292784)
The thing is, it's not just "a razor's edge from just poverty". If you use Hans Rosling's four-part income definition, "just poverty" represents a 4x increase in income from "extreme poverty". For Americans who might make hundreds of dollars a day, the difference between a dollar a day and four dollars a day may not seem like much. But imagine instead what it would be like to change from $100k/year to $400k/year. That's the ratio, but the effects are even greater than that.

It's access to some rudimentary health care. It's maybe a bicycle for transportation. It's a gas stove so you no longer have to use firewood to cook (speaking of deforestation...). It's maybe getting a cash-paying job so you can quadruple your income again.

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by TeMPOraL on Wednesday October 24, 2018 @03:39AM (#18290402)
> A classic example of economic growth innovation in price sensitive India is the single use detergent sachet- each of those represents an improvement in cleanliness and hygiene for people who couldn’t afford it before.

Maybe I'm not western enough, but I can't understand that thing. How is a single-use detergent sachet an improvement over good ol' powder? Do you have any articles discussing it?

Re:Carbon Removal Technologies by graeme on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @06:42PM (#18288145)
Well, we've had a massive increase in annual co2 emissions since 20 years ago. I would posit that the decrease in poverty is a direct result in our burning more energy for short term production.

It's not only that, but I think it's a major factor. I'm only extremely slow internet so I can't look up the table, but I think our annual rate of emissions are 30-50% higher than in 1998. Could be wrong there though.