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Re:Space Transportation System by hef19898 on Monday October 22, 2018 @12:38PM (#18276116)
I love how, despite things like the Cold War and the Vietnam War, projects for the future have been so optimistic and ambitious back then. We really need of these dreamers, people who's goal to land on Mars and build space stations, instead of getting rich by selling adds over social media.

Let's hope Elon cools down, or someone else steps up to it.

Re:Space Transportation System by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 22, 2018 @01:28PM (#18276536)
> We really need of these dreamers

I don't think that's the way causation flows. We got the dreamers because we did ambitious things. If our country put its mind to establishing a permanent colony on the Moon or on Mars, it would light a fire in us all.

Re:Space Transportation System by TeMPOraL on Monday October 22, 2018 @02:06PM (#18276842)
It's a feedback loop. There's a reason why you'd hear Star Trek credited as the reason why many people would go on to become engineers. A reason why people in STEM like to read science fiction books.

Hell, the field of rocketry was itself started by dreamers. Tsiolkovsky and von Braun weren't inspired by ambitious things, they dreamed of ambitious things, and helped made them happen. Goddard reportedly credited Wells[0] as the initial source of inspiration; Tsiolkovsky was apparently moved by the works of Verne[1].

--

What we need, really, is more dreamers in positions of money and influence. People with enough money and political clout to move the needle. Because at this point, what's stopping us is no longer science, just the bank account, and some engineering work of the kind which gets solved when you throw money at it.

--

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Goddard#Cherry_tree_...

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Tsiolkovsky#Early_l...

Re:Space Transportation System by aerophilic on Monday October 22, 2018 @04:41PM (#18278304)
100% agree with the feedback loop, but do want to add the following.

Money magically “becomes” available when there is a profit to be made. Part of what we need to do as a community is finding ways to “monetize” the activities we want to see. Part of this is having the visionaries, but part of this is about “closing” business cases. Things are better now, but the old joke of “How do you make a million in space? Start with 10 million” still applies.

Re:Space Transportation System by ryandrake on Monday October 22, 2018 @05:17PM (#18278606)
We should not have to wait for / rely on billionaires to figure out how to make “activities we want to see” profitable. If “we” is the general public and “want” is strong enough, then taxation and democracy should be suitable tools to make it happen.
Re:Space Transportation System by aerophilic on Thursday October 25, 2018 @12:59AM (#18298636)
While I agree spiritually, I find that it is more effective to follow the “rules” of the universe on these things.

Specific example: law of gravity. If you don’t understand it, you still are impacted by it. So you can either learn it and use it (to make airplanes) or you can just try to jump into the sky and be upset why you can’t fly.

How this applies here: Why is there a lack of political will to “do” space? Well it comes down to kitchen table politics and budgeting. If push comes to shove, “we” as a country think that NASA is something “nice to have” and will budget it at the level of say a “nicer car” then is absolutely necessary to get from a to b safely. But if it will come in the way of safety/food on the table/etc, it will be the first to be cut.

Until there is a true “need”, space exploration will always be a “nice to have” rather than a core necessity.

Re:Space Transportation System by jk4930 on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @01:22AM (#18280901)
Would you send me an email (see profile) please?
Re:Space Transportation System by wnkrshm on Monday October 22, 2018 @12:56PM (#18276266)
The project was intended as dual-use from the start, the shuttle was pitched as a way for the USAF to get classified payloads into space and experience for their military personnel.

The shuttle has flown some classified missions for the DoD but not as many as initially intended, because the platform didn't turn out as reliable as they had hoped. [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned_Spaceflight_Engineer_Pr...

Re:Space Transportation System by wongarsu on Monday October 22, 2018 @01:19PM (#18276457)
The originally envisioned Space Shuttle was much smaller, but NASA couldn't get funding without USAF. In the process USAF and NRO demanded a much larger shuttle, which required the boosters and the additional orange fuel tank, and generally raised operating costs. You could argue that this significantly contributed to the overall failure of the shuttle program (outside of narrow use cases)

Then came the Challenger Disaster, which grounded the Shuttle fleet for three years and lead NASA to cancel all performance improvements, leading to the NRO giving up on the Shuttle as a launch vehicle. In the end the space shuttle was neither reliable enough nor powerfull enough for NRO missions. [1][2]

1: https://de.scribd.com/document/348134338/Declassifying-the-F...

2: https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB509/

Re:Space Transportation System by philwelch on Monday October 22, 2018 @05:58PM (#18278913)
The NRO requirements were a huge part of what sunk the shuttle. One requirement was that the Shuttle should be able to launch into a polar orbit, launch a reconnaissance satellite (to replace one that the Soviets shot down), and then immediately land after coming once around (so the Soviets don't also shoot down the Shuttle). This is why the Shuttle has that massive, heavy delta wing--because you have to do a lot more controlled aerodynamic gliding to land from a polar orbit.

Of course, the Soviets never shot down an American reconnaissance satellite and the Shuttle never launched into a polar orbit. Also the military and NRO figured out that you could just launch a reconnaissance satellite even into a polar orbit on an unmanned rocket anyway.

The Soviets, of course, were a lot more inclined towards unmanned solutions anyway, and concluded that the only thing the Shuttle would actually be useful for was orbital bombing, since it could launch nukes, do a burn to change its orbit, and repeat until empty to confound any kind of ASAT system. And then they panicked, invented their own space shuttle, and then collapsed as a major superpower and abandoned the project. I don't know of any clear evidence that the USAF even considered this, but if you evaluate the Shuttle design from a perspective of already having different and arguably better solutions for all of the stated requirements, it was probably safer for the Soviets to think, "this must be a secret orbital space bomber" than to think, "wow, the Americans made a lot of really weird and nonsensical design decisions". Among other things, they probably didn't account for the fact that the American space program held onto the mythos of the heroic astronaut even when manned missions weren't the best technical solution (e.g. satellite launches).

Re:Space Transportation System by Bluestrike2 on Monday October 22, 2018 @10:43PM (#18280358)
The compromises arising from NRO and other intel/military requirements may very well have "sunk" the Shuttle (or helped do so); if so, it was only after the same compromises likely helped it garner much of the political support necessary to build it in the first place. DOD caused all sorts of headaches, but the alternative probably would have been no launch system rather than a better one. It certainly helped protect the program when it at risk:

> When in 1979 President Jimmy Carter considered canceling the shuttle program because of its cost overruns, it was the national security uses of the shuttle, particularly in terms of launching the photo-reconnaissance satellites needed to verify arms control agreements, that convinced the presi- dent to continue the program. Once the Reagan administration took office in 1981, an early action was to confirm as national policy that the shuttle would be “the primary space launch system for both United States military and civilian government missions" (Logsdon, 291).

Maybe we'd have been better off had that happened, then or earlier. But there's little indication that NASA would have been able to successfully get approval for a less radical vehicle without the Shuttle's biggest selling point at the beginning: cheap, reusable, with a fast turnaround time. And in terms of mission capability, everything and the kitchen sink to boot.

As for the compromises, among other examples, in 1969 the Shuttle's payload bay was "...in fact sized to launch HEXAGON," or Keyhole-9, then in development, ten feet in diameter by 60 feet long and over 30,000 pounds (Logsdon, 167). Well and good, except for the fact that HEXAGON would be EOL when the Shuttle started flying and thus was never expected to be launched on it. But they figured any future satellites would be the same size and weight, so the Shuttle was likely designed around those parameters as a result. Oops.

For what it's worth, even if the national security community hadn't originally pushed for the cross-range single pass capability that helped lead to the delta wing design, it's likely that NASA would have wound up there anyhow:

> The need for high cross-range was throughout the shuttle debate a point of contention between NASA and the national security community. In reality, requirements for national security missions requiring high cross-range were never formalized and more or less evaporated during the 1970s. Well before that time, however, NASA had decided that a shuttle having significant maneuvering capability as it returned from orbit was needed to survive the heat of entry into the atmosphere. So while the national security cross-range requirement initially drove NASA to a particular shuttle orbiter design, one with delta-shaped wings and the thermal protection needed to resist high temperatures during a maneuvering entry, NASA likely would have adopted a similar design even if that requirement had not been levied in 1969. Whether NASA would have gone forward with a shuttle having a 15 × 60 foot payload bay and powerful enough to launch the most heavy national security payloads is not as clear; in the final days of the shuttle debate in December 1971, NASA put forward a somewhat smaller and less powerful shuttle as its proposed design (169).

I cannot recommend John Logsdon's After Apollo? Richard Nixon and the American Space Program[0] enough. It's a fascinating look into the politics and challenges NASA faced even in the heady days after Apollo 11. And, yes, the mistakes: by DOD, NASA, congress, and the White House starting with Nixon.

0. https://www.amazon.com/After-Apollo-American-Palgrave-Techno...

Re:Space Transportation System by black6 on Monday October 22, 2018 @01:10PM (#18276386)
For those interested, there is a good series of essays on The Space Review detailing the National Reconnaissance Office’s effort to integrate Space Shuttle operations into its spy satellite servicing schedule.

Part 1: http://thespacereview.com/article/3172/1

Part 2: http://thespacereview.com/article/3302/1

Part 3-1: http://thespacereview.com/article/3390/1

Part 3-2: http://thespacereview.com/article/3394/1

Re:Space Transportation System by TeMPOraL on Monday October 22, 2018 @01:55PM (#18276765)
> The project was intended as dual-use from the start, the shuttle was pitched as a way for the USAF to get classified payloads into space and experience for their military personnel.

Not surprising, given that back then, a) patriotism seem to have mattered more, and b) that's how you got funding for ambitious - and thus expensive - projects.

Re:Space Transportation System by aurailious on Monday October 22, 2018 @01:01PM (#18276308)
SpaceX will be fine without Elon if that ever has to happen. Gwynne Shotwell is very capable of leading it.
Re:Space Transportation System by tomp on Monday October 22, 2018 @01:22PM (#18276480)
Paraphrasing another comment I read sometime ago: Gwynne is very capable of managing the operations, but would SpaceX really be landing rockets on drone ships if it wasn't Elon pushing for it?
Re:Space Transportation System by bduerst on Monday October 22, 2018 @01:59PM (#18276806)
Yes? Shotwell was the 11th employee of SpaceX, and isn't CEO of multiple other companies.
Re:Space Transportation System by cgdcraig on Monday October 22, 2018 @11:14PM (#18280468)
Elon has always been one of the main drivers of innovation over there, Gwenn has been the one keeping stuff afloat but Elon has been the one driving the "the hell I'm paying that much for a piece, I'll make it myself" culture as well as the iterative process.
Re:Space Transportation System by larrydag on Monday October 22, 2018 @03:08PM (#18277368)
I don't think there is any shortage of dreamers. It's the funders that are in shortage. The U.S. government wasn't willing to spend on STS since its price tag was so high and not much appetite from the general public. Frankly I'm not surprised.

It seems to me that the dreamers are going to come from the private sector a la Musk, Bezos, and gangs. This can allow deep pockets like governments to spend frugally on projects that the general public can get behind.

Re:Space Transportation System by trukterious on Monday October 22, 2018 @06:56PM (#18279307)
Say we were to crash potentially earth-destroying asteroids into the moon and then offer free mining rights to companies on a first-to-get-there basis.

I think we would still hear a a cacophony of moral objections. A spirit of pessimism seems to be hanging over us these days:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX-K63pVPTM

Re:Space Transportation System by dokem on Monday October 22, 2018 @04:48PM (#18278351)
> Elon cools down

I'm curious to what you are referring, exactly?

Re:Space Transportation System by acover on Monday October 22, 2018 @04:55PM (#18278413)
A guess - Twitter
Re:Space Transportation System by agumonkey on Monday October 22, 2018 @01:51PM (#18276729)
I couldn't care less about exhuberant dreams. Most of this is escapism.
Re:Space Transportation System by TeMPOraL on Monday October 22, 2018 @02:10PM (#18276878)
I don't think I've ever met or heard of a person who's into space travel who would embrace it as an exercise in escapism. To me, it seems that it's something only said by people who don't like space programs.
Re:Space Transportation System by agumonkey on Monday October 22, 2018 @02:12PM (#18276894)
You're totally wrong. I have nothing against space in itself. Just anything grandiose and technological feels absurd in our era. We have too much tech and not enough happiness. More tech is just chasing the exhilarating sensations of the early days of the last tech revolution.
Re:Space Transportation System by avmich on Monday October 22, 2018 @02:39PM (#18277107)
> We have too much tech and not enough happiness.

Probably worth reminding about it here:

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/08/why-explore-space.html

I think space exploration can create happiness.

Re:Space Transportation System by agumonkey on Monday October 22, 2018 @02:52PM (#18277230)
Totally at odds of my tiny understanding of the human condition
Re:Space Transportation System by larrydag on Monday October 22, 2018 @03:10PM (#18277388)
Then Christopher Columbus was the biggest escape artist ever. Thank goodness for dreamers.
Re:Space Transportation System by agumonkey on Monday October 22, 2018 @03:50PM (#18277786)
Really ? tell that to mayans and native americans. I'm sure they have a different opinion.
Re:Space Transportation System by kevin_thibedeau on Monday October 22, 2018 @06:13PM (#18279023)
Columbus never set foot on North America so part of that isn't on him.
Re:Space Transportation System by agumonkey on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @04:42AM (#18281768)
Come on, the whole new world discovery had bad roots. It was to expand to find wealth and get fat. Colombus isn't responsible but the big picture is that the ~amazing discovery resulted in massive genocides from north to south america.
Re:Space Transportation System by nickik on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @10:23AM (#18283589)
Colombus wanted to go to the spice island and they would have traded with the people there.

And also what's your alternative? For the different parts of the global never to come into contact?

You could throw shade at pretty much all human exploration because most of it was done to get more resources of some kind.

Re:Space Transportation System by agumonkey on Wednesday October 24, 2018 @08:39AM (#18291857)
Oh yeah, I'd have zero problem not knowing about cultures that were already living their own live minding their own business. You know researchers today have a rule to not pollute or disrupt ecosystems they study. Constrating.
Re:Space Transportation System by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday October 24, 2018 @08:45AM (#18291901)
Hm. The amount of starvation, disease and hardship in the old days are not to be wished on anyone. The world coming into communication has its upside too.

Granted, the New World suffered grievously by contact - an estimate 100M dead from diseases they were unequipped to handle. So there's that.

Re:Space Transportation System by memebox3v on Monday October 22, 2018 @01:03PM (#18276334)
Lol. This wasn't dreaming. This was posturing. It was America puffing themselves up to look big when confronted with the threat of the USSR. You have to dig deep to find the dreamers, you can sometimes find thier writing on the subway walls or the tenement halls. Or see them standing by lone sea breakers and desolate streams. Don't worry a new tune will be along soon. No one knows where from, thats part of the charm. Wait for the next dream, the OP posted a dream that is dying.
Re:Space Transportation System by wongarsu on Monday October 22, 2018 @02:07PM (#18276855)
You always have both dreamers and posturing. We reached the moon both because Wernher von Braun dreamt about reaching moon and mars, and because first Hitler and later the USA saw rocketry as a useful tool for war and propaganda. Same thing happened on the Soviet side.

You tend to have dreamers pushing and implementing ideas, but it is much easier to get funding for more immediate goals