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Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by Balgair on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:13PM (#18241858)
The 'politics' of tipping aside, one thing that really grinds my gears is that they calculate the tip after taxes are applied. I feel that the tips should be calculated based on the exchange I had with the establishment/person and that the taxes should considered separate from our interaction. Like, here's the 20% tip on the 100$ I spent. Not, here's the 20% tip on the $100 + 5% tax, $105 total. I know why they do this, it's more money to them, but, to me, it's disingenuous (or they don't realize it being done this way, which may be worse).
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by sushid on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:47PM (#18242333)
If there's anything I've learned through a decade of browsing Reddit, there's nothing to be gained on a discussion revolving around tipping.

Feelings will be hurt, people will talk over each other, and no one goes on doing anything different than they did before.

Might as well as be debating tabs vs. spaces while we're at it.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by alexozer on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @04:41PM (#18243589)
I thought it was pretty clear spaces are better?
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by dysan819 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @05:47PM (#18244121)
I'm not a fan of somewhat opaque spaces and think pretty clear spaces are better as well.
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by Waterluvian on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:16PM (#18241908)
It was never like that. They just exploit the digitization of tipping to con you out of a bit more money.

Tipping is being fundamentally exploited as a way to make everything look cheaper.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by mikestew on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:34PM (#18242151)
I feel that the tips should be calculated based on the exchange I had with the establishment/person

You're free to calculate the tip however you like. Just because some junior programmer took the easy way out to make the math easier doesn't mean you have to along with it. I don't recall a digitized tip screen that didn't let me enter a custom amount.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by Balgair on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @04:03PM (#18243198)
True, but it is dishonest at best and negligent at worst. The 'error' is in their favor, not the customers. It sends a bad signal that they are willing to 'cheat' you over less than a dollar. What else could they be 'cheating' the customer on?
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by splonk on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:40PM (#18242241)
This is configurable in the point of sale system. In my experience at local places it seems relatively evenly split between pretax and posttax. Not clear if there's a consistent default across all the various POS systems.

For example, Square's documentation: https://squareup.com/help/us/en/article/5069-accept-tips-wit...

>You will need to select if you would like your tips to be added before or after your taxes have been applied to the sale.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by beatgammit on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @10:42PM (#18245512)
Tipping shouldn't be based on a percentage of the bill either, it should be based on the service. If you give me good service, it doesn't matter if I spent $10 or $100, you should be rewarded the same.

I have kids, and I know they can be a pain for servers. If they handle my kids well (e.g. sitting us in a booth near a wall is better than a table in the middle of the room) and/or my kids make a mess, I'll leave a bigger tip. If they ignore is for more affluent looking customers, I'll leave a smaller tip. When I bring my kids, I'm not paying a sitter, so that money is up for grabs.

My wife and I will often order and give some to the kids instead of them having their own meal (they only pick at it anyway), so basing the tip on the bill isn't a very good way to do it. I also don't like to buy drinks (I don't drink alcohol and I prefer to avoid sugar), so my bill will always be way less than someone who goes all out.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by spdionis on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:17PM (#18241921)
Isn't the problem the other way around? In Europe taxes are included in the price from the start.
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by adrianmonk on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:50PM (#18242373)
No, those two things are orthogonal.

The convention in the US is to compute the tip on the pre-tax amount. If the pre-tax price is $10, a 20% tip is $2 and 8% tax is $0.80, for a total of $12.80.

Now, some of this software has come along and tried to sneak in a change to the formula where the tip is computed on the post-tax amount. They take $10, add 8% tax to get $10.80, and then compute 20% of that for the tip, for a total of $12.96.

They have deceptively changed the tip rate from 20% to 21.6%.

Whether prices are listed tax inclusive or tax exclusive isn't the issue. Even with tax-inclusive pricing like Europe has, it still would have been possible to sneak in a change to the formula for computing the tip.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by cardiffspaceman on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @03:28PM (#18242832)
> They have deceptively changed the tip rate from 20% to 21.6%.

It's simply a bug. I got a suggested tip amount on a bar bill, the other day and it was clearly derived from the total of all the food and beverage, before taxes. It was all there in writing, and the figures were easy for me to check in my head.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by Balgair on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @03:57PM (#18243123)
Oh, with drinks it's even harder to calculate in the US. The 'typical' tip, regardless of (a reasonable) price is $1 flat. For a $3 domestic, that's a ~33% tip. For a $7 microbrew that's ~14% tip. Even with $10 martinis, $1 is 'typical'. Trying to factor that all in to the tip on the bill makes for a heck of a problem, especially after a few drinks!
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by spdionis on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @07:20PM (#18244672)
I just meant that to simplify literally everything you could just work only in post-tax numbers like the rest of the world does.

Obviously this would indeed increase tip amount, but it would definitely decrease confusion and probably fix itself over the long run if the new tip amount was too big.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by tyfon on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @03:32PM (#18242859)
Also, at least here in Norway, the service workers have to pay taxes on the tips. How does this work in other countries? It it just a way to dodge taxes for the owners?

Minimum wage laws also applies to the pre-tip salary so it's not really expected most places unless you get exceptional service. I've never seen "pre-calculated" tips either here or elsewhere in Europe.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by Symbiote on Thursday October 18, 2018 @04:44AM (#18246900)
Some proportion (between 25-75%, I'm not really sure) of restaurants in Britain do this.

At the bottom of the menu it says something like "A discretionary service charge of 10% will be added to your bill [for groups of (4|5|6) or more]"

Then it ends up like this: https://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/28hfOrBSZ1SYPD--tlNU...

I don't like it; it makes the prices on the menu appear smaller than a competing restaurant.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by late2part on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:28PM (#18242076)
That's because the VAT paradigm obscures the taxes; in US and some other places the amount paid is separated into "cost" and "tax."
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by hesk on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:57PM (#18242463)
It's not really obscured. Actual costs and taxes are stated separately on every receipt or invoice. It's just that the advertised price has to include taxes.
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by late2part on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @04:26PM (#18243441)
Fair point, thanks for clarifying.
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by Symbiote on Thursday October 18, 2018 @04:58AM (#18246940)
Example receipt from Sweden: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Cash_rou...

On the middle one, you can see there are two different tax rates ("MOMS" = VAT), depending on the category of goods.

Here's one from Germany: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Aldi-Qui...

It also has two VAT rates (MwSt A and B), and each item is marked according to the rate. The yoghurt and müsli has a lower rate than the soft drinks and electronics.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by nraynaud on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:35PM (#18242168)
Yeah, and for a really capitalistic reason: you can compare a night at the restaurant with a night at the movie to allocate your budget, wheras in the US you have to know the tax on movie tickets, the tax on food (good luck, theses are defined by town), and the tip you will leave.

Capitalism only work if both side of the transaction have the same information, that's how Stiglitz got his Nobel prize. (another US trope: collecting the Nobel prizes and never reading the papers)