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Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by threeseed on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @06:54PM (#18233989)
That economic growth came at a pretty severe cost though.

The budget deficit blew out by 17% in 2018 as a result of the tax cuts.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by 40acres on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:24PM (#18234171)
For a long time I couldn't wrap my head around why defecits matter to the US when we print our currency. To be honest I still don't fully understand the hand wringing over a balanced budget and reading more about modern monetary theory is leading me to believe that for a superpower which issues it's own currency the defecit is more of a political issue that a concrete one.

The defecit just keeps ballooning but the only thing stopping the US government from running are self imposed restrictions on debt (the "debt ceiling"). The US is not a company, and it's not a normal household, why does the budget matter?

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by nknezek on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:43PM (#18234264)
The deficit mainly matters because we have to pay interest on the loans we take out. If the rates are good, it's actually a great investment. If the rates are bad, it hamstrings future growth, because now the budget is spent paying back old loans instead of building new things.

Well, why can't we just print money? We can, but it runs the risk of inflation. Inflation is historically low, so yes -- we could totally just print a bunch of money to pay back our debts with relatively little risk of inflation in the short term.

Essentially, debt doesn't matter, except that we have to pay interest. Interest doesn't matter because we print money, except that it might cause inflation. Taxes "destroy" money to dampen inflation. Thus, we can pay off our loans, but that might cause inflation, which might require us to raise taxes not to repay the loans, but to prevent inflation.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by mercutio2 on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @09:20PM (#18234790)
In other words, we don't have to pay interest, we choose to, because inflation would almost certainly rise substantially if we printed a ton of money, and we're cautious (some might say overcautious) about inflation.

Of course there are some head-scratching rationalizations going around about why gargantuan deficits are good now, a decade into one of the longest economic expansions in living memory, but would have been bad to do when proposed in response to one of the deepest recessions in living memory.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by 40acres on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:52PM (#18234313)
Yes but we also have an instution that controls interest rates, The Federal Reserve! As a poster mentioned earlier, the US also gets really good rates. Turns out being a superpower helps your credit score.

There has been lots of ink spilled with respect to lagging productivity gains and I think the at this point concern about the budget may be a factor. There are enough big problems that can be addressed (infrastructure, health care, homes, etc.) if there was enough government spending to spark to investment and growth.

I'm starting to believe that the real balancing act is a matter of controlling inflation rather than controlling the defecit.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by MarkMc on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:57PM (#18234350)
Yes, the US government could simply print all the money it needs then pay off all it's creditors.

But how would those creditors respond? They would refuse to lend in US dollars in future, and the US government and private companies would be forced to borrow in a foreign currency. Net result is that the US loses a valuable asset - the ability to borrow in its own currency - and becomes more like Turkey or Argentina.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by spiralx on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @08:21AM (#18238235)
If creditors are paid off, why would that discourage them from making future loans? Creditors surely want to get their money back, and countries that have trouble borrowing money are those that don't make debt repayments, not those that do.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by diggernet on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:24PM (#18241997)
Because printing more dollars reduces the value of each one, so they've been paid back with dollars worth less than the ones they loaned out.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by spiralx on Thursday October 18, 2018 @05:28AM (#18247031)
But even if that's true - does printing more dollars affect the price of crude oil on the international markets for instance - if the interest accrued on those loans exceeds the loss of value due to inflation, then they're still ahead overall. And that's the sort of thing that people take into account already when making investments.

And that's not considering that the same would happen with any alternative investments, nor the fact that risk is an important part of an investment calculation, and US debt is considered "risk-free".

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by diggernet on Thursday October 18, 2018 @02:06PM (#18250613)
This is all true, but look at the context of discussion... Why would someone be discouraged from making future loans if the government printed money for the purpose of paying them off? Because the government took action which directly and intentionally reduced the return on their investment beyond what they anticipated in their original analysis. That will effect their analysis for future loans, reducing the appeal of those loans. Thus discouraging them.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by tropo on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:40PM (#18234247)
Neither extreme viewpoint is good.

On the one hand, you are very correct to point out that the US is not a company or household, and that the US is a superpower that prints currency. Too many people ignore this. Another point, shared with less-sovereign governments, is that the US can impose tariffs and fees and other taxes.

On the other hand, the deficit leads to interest payments on debt. Defaulting crashes the economy, as does going to extremes printing money.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by drewrv on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:42PM (#18234258)
The US can also borrow at really good rates. If a business could borrow that cheaply it would be a no-brainer to take debt and build a new factory or whatever. Similarly, it makes a ton of sense for the government to borrow and then invest in future economic growth.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by nemo846 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @01:17AM (#18236301)
Hell of a gamble ...

Correct me if I’m wrong.

The current administration cuts the tax rate and borrows to make up for the shortfall in tax revenue.

All this is in hopes that the economy grows enough such that the reduce tax rate can support government spending and pay back the debt + interest.

If the economy goes south for whatever reason (e.g. China imploding, another bubble pops) ...

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by spiralx on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @08:32AM (#18238307)
What crisis would be so large that the US would be unable to keep up with it's repayments? Especially when you consider that it can borrow more to repay current debt instruments i.e. issue more Treasury bills, notes and bonds.

Plus other countries always need to borrow dollars because it's what oil is sold in, which is one of the things that makes US Government debt considered the baseline or "risk-free" investment, with any other investment having increased risk, and accordingly increased reward.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by tanderson92 on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:30PM (#18234209)
It doesn't matter. And you're right, MMT is purely descriptive.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by mwfunk on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:58PM (#18234352)
Because printing more money isn't an option for one thing. It might be a short term fix for some things, but in the long run it just devalues the currency and lowers the US credit rating, with the worst case scenario being hyperinflation.

Also, there's the question of who owns all that debt that the US relies on for its continued existence. For example, China owns a big chunk of it, like ~$1.2 trillion. They buy tons of US Treasury bonds because they're considered a safe investment. China gives the US a bunch of money up front, and the US has to give China a bunch more money back in the future, like over the course of 10 years. A lot of Americans also own US bonds, which help fund the debt, but they own them because they're a safe investment, not because they want to lend the government money.

So, as long as the US is in debt, it's forced to rely on other countries and its own credit rating to keep it going. That's a problem. And at some point, the sheer amount of debt will lower that credit rating, making those US bonds less of a safe investment, and that would be the tipping point at which everything starts falling apart. It will be much harder to fund deficit spending, which could snowball into printing money, then fast forward 5 years and boom, zombie apocalypse (or at least a potential Venezuela or Weimar Republic type situation).

TL;DR: the deficit is an existential threat the US if it's not kept under control.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by spiralx on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:51AM (#18240220)
The amount of debt isn't a problem for a country's credit rating as long as repayments are made on time, that's the same as for individual borrowing and their credit score. You have to explain why the US would fail to repay its debts before you can claim there's a problem.

China owns just 5.3% of US debt, only slightly more than Japan, which owns 4.8% of it. Most US debt is owned by government programmes such as Social Security.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by tjr225 on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @06:58PM (#18234005)
I wonder who will be left to pay for the deficit when all is said and done?
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by paulpauper on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:06PM (#18234057)
Japan has run much bigger deficits relative to GDP for a long time and yet inflation and bond yields are rock-bottom.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by NTDF9 on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:18PM (#18234135)
But their GDP hasn't been growing much either. They've been fighting deflation (or non-wage inflation) for a long long time.

I'm not sure a deflation is good for us.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by tanderson92 on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:31PM (#18234212)
It doesn't follow that the deflation has been due to the deficit.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by NTDF9 on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @08:08PM (#18234404)
> It doesn't follow that the deflation has been due to the deficit.

It's obvious to the economic world. That's the reason BOJ keeps buying Japanese stocks and bonds (to keep asset prices high when others have stopped buying) and Japanese people have stopped investing in Nikkei (because holding cash == increasing value)

That's also the reason Japan (notoriously closed society) is admitting defeat and letting in immigrants to work.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by tanderson92 on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @08:13PM (#18234427)
It’s convenient for deficit hawks that they can simultaneously blame deficits for deflation in Japan and fear monger about hyperinflation in the US.

Your comment also doesn’t link the deficit to the deflation, only speculates on the effects of and policy response to that deflation.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by NTDF9 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @01:45AM (#18236408)
> It’s convenient for deficit hawks that they can simultaneously blame deficits for deflation in Japan and fear monger about hyperinflation in the US.

You need to understand the sequence of events in Japan. They had a massive debt problem (national, local and corporate). That triggered a recession causing asset prices to drop. The caused deflation.

The only way to not have asset prices drop and some inflation was printing money. So they printed. Their population and economic investment dropped further while they kept printing money (two opposite pulls). This kept them going until today. It's a wonder they didn't hyperinflate. They pulled it off. But the expense of this is no GDP growth. Infact, whatever GDP growth they have is because of BOJ selling assets to BOJ who sells assets to BOJ. It's a mirage.

So, yeah, their real economic activity (thus, investments, wages, innovation) has dropped from zero to negative because for the average individual, holding money = gold!

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by soperj on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:18PM (#18234139)
Don't know why they don't try increasing minimum wage there, since everyone seems to think that leads to inflation.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by threeseed on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:03PM (#18234048)
There is news about this today.

McConnell is demanding that the Democrats work with Republicans to cut entitlement programs.

Even though they control all three branches and are the ones who passed the very expensive tax cuts.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by 40acres on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:09PM (#18234073)
There has been a clear trend for decades now showing that the defecit grows under Republican presidents and shrinks under Democratic ones.

Aside from cultural issues like abortion the Republican agenda seems so far removed from what their constitancy needs it's hard to fathom.

The next time Democrats are in control you'll be sure to see GOP complaints that the defecit is a problem and entitlements should be on the chopping block.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by dragonwriter on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:21PM (#18234155)
> The next time Democrats are in control you'll be sure to see GOP complaints that the defecit is a problem and entitlements should be on the chopping block.

They are actually doing that right now, even though they created the massive deficit increase.

That's because to them, entitlements are the problem, and the deficit is just the standard excuse.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by codexon on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:18PM (#18234134)
It does makes sense from their standpoint though. In their mind, everything they want to spend money on is necessary, while everything the other party wants to spend money on is wasteful.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by wahern on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:23PM (#18234169)
The missing piece of logic is that the Republicans don't actually want to fund their expenditures. Democrats may be the party of tax and spend, but Republicans are the party of just spend. The former provides back pressure to the electorate, the latter is a recipe for ruining the country regardless of your policy preferences.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by claydavisss on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:29PM (#18234204)
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by redblacktree on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @09:02PM (#18234681)
Are those numbers adjusted for inflation? It isn't mentioned in the article. If they aren't, the conclusions are suspect.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by nathantotten on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:07PM (#18234062)
This was by design. Reduce income and leave no choice but cut spending.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by dan_quixote on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:25PM (#18234177)
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by erichocean on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:15PM (#18234113)
[DELETED]
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by existencebox on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:22PM (#18234158)
Is that true? [0]

The real question would be "inflation adjusted per-capita tax receipts over time" but a mid-work googling didn't turn up anything promising; that being said from the above graph _and_ the knowledge that inflation is increasing, your statement doesn't seem to mesh. Feel free to point out if I was really thick and got the wrong data or something.

[0]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/W006RC1Q027SBEA

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by munk-a on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:05PM (#18234052)
I mean... no one should be surprised by this at all... unless you've had your head under a rock for quite some time.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by Covzire on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:17PM (#18234127)
Isn't it too early to say what the cost of the tax cuts were? If the Republicans are right, they'll spur enough economic growth to be a net gain across the board in both new economic activity (wealth). I don't know if there's a proper name for it, but I'd much prefer a dollar spent in the private sector so the government doesn't have to spend two just to accomplish the same thing.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by mrep on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @08:01PM (#18234373)
Don't know why you are getting downvoted since you are right, it is called the Laffer curve [0]. Granted, most evidence shows the maximum tax revenue rate to be closer to 70% so it is highly unlikely that these tax cuts will increase revenue.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by tfehring on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @08:17PM (#18234448)
>I'd much prefer a dollar spent in the private sector so the government doesn't have to spend two just to accomplish the same thing.

This is a false equivalence because the government and the private sector spend money on very different things. If the tax cuts end up being funded by reductions in entitlement spending, for example, the private sector won't funnel money into Social Security and Medicare to offset those reductions.

>If the Republicans are right, they'll spur enough economic growth to be a net gain across the board in both new economic activity (wealth)

CBO projections imply that the nearly all of the long-term gains from the tax cuts will flow to foreign investors [0], so it certainly won't be a net gain for the US as a whole.

[0] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2018/05/10/cbo-estim...

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by woofyman on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:21PM (#18234151)
> I don't know if there's a proper name for it

Voodoo Economics

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by spork12 on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:19PM (#18234144)
No one, we can default to the federal reserve if we need to they are our own central bank.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by mudil on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:05PM (#18234056)
I wonder who will be left to pay for the public pension crisis and the $4 Trillion Shortfall? http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/the-time-bomb-ins...
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by wahern on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:30PM (#18234206)
The pensioners and tax payers in the particular states with the problem. It's not a federal issue at all as federal pensions have always been fully funded.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by cronix on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:56PM (#18234342)
And even more as interest rates rise
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by sparkling on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @06:56PM (#18234001)
Look at relative debt to GDP ratio rather than absolute numbers.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by endorphone on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:16PM (#18234117)
It's approaching 100%. As for the deficit, it's at 4% and rising to 4.7% in 2019.

During full employment. During what can reasonably be called boomed times. Historic deficits.

This isn't normal.

Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by paulpauper on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:07PM (#18234066)
Also look at the interest paid on the debt, which is also low relative to historical levels
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by mgkimsal on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:35PM (#18234228)
it's rising though, and will, I assume, rise faster as interest rates rise and the cost of the debt rises along with it (either immediately or in the near future). IIRC, current interest on debt is something like $400B, which is more than the budgets of many entire depts (dept of energy budget is ~$30B for example).
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by tdb7893 on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:09PM (#18234074)
Does that metric work well on this timescale? I thought with how much debt we have spending will pretty much always lower the ratio in the short term.
Re:U.S. Is World’s Most Competitive Economy for First Time i... by threeseed on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:10PM (#18234076)
Not sure why since I was talking about percentage change in deficit.

And I am more concerned whether the tax cuts delivered an effective ROI.