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Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by neffy on Monday October 15, 2018 @03:50PM (#18223065)
Not very often at all. We know the difference. We know, or learn quite quickly, as do the vast majority of men, how to politely say no, to those who wish to be polite.

Stop assuming this is hysteria, it's not. It's a collective, we're just tired of this. And let me also offer some quick and dirty math to support that it's not a majority of men. Let's assume 1% of men don't know how to be polite and in fact enjoy being abusive. They do this on average 1/week to a randomly chosen woman. Within a relatively short time every woman will have had at least one unpleasant experience.

For the most part these individuals pick on people they presume to be easy targets, so some women get treated much worse than others, just as men who are perceived to be easy targets equally have problems - probably with the same guys. That's also why the power dynamics play into it, the definition of easy target depends on that. And at some point, everybody just gives up, deals with their situation as best they can, and tries to never go upstairs ever again in Yale frat houses.

Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by tomp on Monday October 15, 2018 @06:11PM (#18224319)
It clearly is hysteria. Maybe it's uncovering a real problem (I am inclined to believe data like from this article), but it's most definitely, obviously a hysteria. The media is very happy to pounce on accusations, and many of the most widely publicised ones have turned out to be either completely false (A Rape on Campus, mattress girl, Oxford Union, Duke Lacrosse, Jian Gomeshi) or extremely overblown (Tim Hunt, Rosetta guy). We cannot talk about this problem clearly and rationally and devise sensible and effective solutions until people stop being hysterical.
Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by rainonmoon on Monday October 15, 2018 @08:02PM (#18225251)
This isn't just about the most widely publicised events (in which just as many and more as the ones you listed were spot on) but about something that impacts women at every level of society. Try talking to your female friends about it.
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Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by DanBC on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @03:32AM (#18227389)
You don't think there's another reason why women are not telling you about their experiences?
Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by sievebrain on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @12:49PM (#18230904)
No. I never bring up the topic with them not do I express any opinions about the veracity of such stories in front of them.

But hey thanks for the ad-hominem that suggests my friends don't trust me despite knowing nothing about me DanBC. I can easily do the same in reverse - did it ever occur that perhaps women tell you about "experiences" because they think you're an easy mark?

Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by DanBC on Friday October 19, 2018 @03:05PM (#18259119)
You don't think you're guilty of adhom yourself, with your "they're all lying" claim?

And, really,it doesn't matter what they tell me or you. It matters what they tell crime survey statisticians. Have you _ever_ bothered to look up your country's crime survey stats?

Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by sievebrain on Sunday October 21, 2018 @01:48PM (#18269142)
Ad hominem would be if I tried to dismiss an argument with an unrelated attack on someone's personality. In this case I'm not even talking about their personalities or making unrelated accusations, just reporting what happened. Reporting their stories in their own words can't possibly be ad hominem and I'm not even accusing them of lying - they clearly told me what really happened, that's how I'm so sure they were never in danger.

I'm well aware of what self reported crime stats say but my entire thesis in this thread is that women routinely make wildly exaggerated claims so why would surveys of what they think change my mind? A huge disparity between self reports and actual criminal cases is exactly what I'd expect to see

Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by tomp on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @01:35PM (#18231352)
I really wish your post above wasn't flagged. I tried "vouching" for it but I don't think it worked.
Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by sievebrain on Sunday October 21, 2018 @01:44PM (#18269119)
Thanks anyway. HN readers can't handle the idea of a woman lying at all, really.
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Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by colemickens on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @07:23AM (#18228368)
Wow, (regarding that video you reference) this is the first time I've seen someone use an obvious mentally ill person to push their strawman representation of a perceived ideological opponent.

>Sorry, I am not yet convinced. And the women I see around me don't seem that stressed out. I'd expect them to be nervous wrecks who never leave the house if everything was as horrible as feminists claim.

"Never mind the cacophony of stories being told elsewhere, nobody has told me directly so they must all be lying!"

Gee, I wonder why no women have talked to you about their experiences with men. Can't say I'd ever be having that sort of conversation with someone that spends their time doubting the experiences of women for no reason, with no justification.

>I also know women who are unhappy if they don't receive any attention anymore.

"I know women that want attention so women must not have it bad or experience casual, common harassment.". How is any of this real?

>I'd expect them to be nervous wrecks who never leave the house if everything was as horrible as feminists claim.

What does this mean? "As feminists claim". What feminist literature are you reading and referencing? How are you measuring the pulse of feminism right now? Could you please clarify if you are simply stating that you don't believe the number of women that have discussed their own personal experiences with harassment? They're all in on some ploy to punk men? I really am curious what the thought is here.

Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by yourbandsucks on Monday October 15, 2018 @06:59PM (#18224759)
You're both right here, but also remember that the 'hysterical' ones are a tiny slice of the people who are upset about this. We'll never get to a place where there aren't at least a handful of manic twitter addicts being crazy about the issue.

Waiting "until people stop talking crazy" just means no action, ever.

Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by sololipsist on Monday October 15, 2018 @05:06PM (#18223739)
Do you understand that if you perceive non-harassment as harassment, you're perceiving it as harassment, so of course you think you're not misperceiving it? Like, you get that reality is sometimes different from your perception of it?

If someone suggests you're misperceiving something and your only reply is "I'm not because I know I'm not," you have an obvious epistemological problem.

Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by munchbunny on Monday October 15, 2018 @05:33PM (#18224001)
If it's one woman who stands out in complaining about harassment, then maybe you have an argument. But you have to believe that a giant chunk of the female population are oversensitive and have siege mentalities in order to actually make a counterpoint to the study.

Do you actually believe that many women are oversensitive to harassment?

Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by jhfhhhf on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @04:26AM (#18227658)
Not really a giant chunk, just a very vocal chunk which might well just be a minority.

Besides, I believe that women are often the target of sexual interest. I just don't believe that it is such a horrible thing as some of them proclaim. At the very least, many don't really have the comparison to what it is like to be unattractive, which is not very pleasant, either.

Many people expend a lot of money and time to become more physical attractive. Few people expend effort to become less attractive.

What's more, if you complain about being "sexually harassed", at the same time you signal "social proof" of you being attractive. So telling such stories is a double whammy: you can show proof that you are attractive, and get some pity points and protection, too.

Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by dragonwriter on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @12:04PM (#18230468)
> Besides, I believe that women are often the target of sexual interest. I just don't believe that it is such a horrible thing as some of them proclaim.

Harassment isn't the same as interest.

Heck, expressions of interest aren't the same as interest.

You are insulting men by equating male sexual interest with harassment.

> What's more, if you complain about being "sexually harassed", at the same time you signal "social proof" of you being attractive.

No, you don't.

Because the people who actually take accusations of sexual harassment seriously don't associate it with attractiveness (people who habitually defend harassers or who are serial harassers themselves like to associate them, at least rhetorically, as part of a defense against harassment claims by arguing that the accuser isn't attractive enough to harass, but that's about as far as the association goes.)

Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by Falling3 on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @12:00PM (#18230419)
>What's more, if you complain about being "sexually harassed", at the same time you signal "social proof" of you being attractive.

I'm more surprised than I probably should be about how much this misses the mark. You don't actually believe only "attractive" women are sexually harassed do you?

Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by neffy on Monday October 15, 2018 @05:15PM (#18223827)
That's the thing about personal experiences - they tend to transcend epistemology - but fortunately, at least in my case, not basic self-defence techniques.
Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by jhfhhhf on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @04:23AM (#18227642)
Here is the thing: my personal boundary is my perceptions. I won't believe something you tell me, which I perceive otherwise.

That would be the ultimate goal of the power game feminism is playing. Political correctness is another tool for that, censoring my thoughts.

If you want to convince me, show me things I can perceive and factor into my estimate of the situation. Don't ask me to simply believe stuff. That would be mind control and power games, and I am not playing.

Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by munchbunny on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @05:51AM (#18228022)
Here is the thing: my personal boundary is my perceptions. I won't believe something you tell me, which I perceive otherwise.

What? You're just saying in a roundabout way that the truth is whatever you think it is. That doesn't make any sense.

What would it take for you to accept the conclusion of the posted study at face value?

Usually when I encounter someone claiming a great feminist agenda, their minds were made up beforehand and they never even tried to entertain the possibility that they might be wrong. Maybe you're the exception, but that would be counter to my perceptions.

Re:Survey of YC female founders on sexual harassment, coerci... by brenschluss on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @01:47AM (#18226897)
Let’s I do something to you and you really don’t like it, but I think it’s okay.

Imagine I say, “Why are you misperceiving my actions as harassment? You seem to have an epistemological problem.”

What’s your response?