News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:5G Got me Fired by Barrin92 on Saturday October 06, 2018 @08:30PM (#18158169)
>This is a cautionary tale. Anyone writing for any publisher in today’s commercial market, where the managed advertorial and native ad seems to be the only way to make money, needs to be cautious. More importantly today’s readers need to be a little more than cautious when believing anything. Native advertising is a most insidious concept and should be rejected by every publisher. Instead it is welcomed by the broadcasting networks and most of the major newspapers including the New York Times. Are the writers saying nice things or are they paid to say nice things?

I think we quickly need changes in the way we handle native advertising. It is hugely problematic and basically predatory.

I believe that there are ways to genuinely advertise if the advertisement is openly disclosed and the ad is informative, but native advertising is essentially just a sophisticated and insidious form of manipulation. It turns readers into non-consenting consumers and the purpose of journalism from informing truthfully to a sales pitch. I have trouble imagining that many people think this is tolerable if we'd be debating it openly and brought it to the forefront of the news (which ironically is not going to happen).

Re:5G Got me Fired by petermcneeley on Saturday October 06, 2018 @08:45PM (#18158228)
"The power of advertisers over television programming stems from the simple fact that they buy and pay for the programs-they are the "patrons" who provide the media subsidy. As such, the media compete for their patronage, developing specialized staff to solicit advertisers and necessarily having to explain how their programs serve advertisers’ needs. The choices of these patrons greatly affect the welfare of the media, and the patrons become what William Evan calls "normative reference organizations," whose requirements and demands the media must accommodate if they are to succeed." - Noam Chomsky , Manufacture of Consent.
Re:5G Got me Fired by Robotbeat on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:07PM (#18158641)
This makes me think that, besides the fact that Elon Musk seems to constantly has his foot in his mouth nowadays, this may be partly why Tesla has been getting so much negative press coverage (particularly headlines, which are usually written by editors, not the journalists who seem more objective to me). Tesla doesn't advertise. Everyone else in the industry does, bankrolling the press.

I know the press will deny this motive, but how can it not be a factor, even slightly?

Re:5G Got me Fired by gurumeditations on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:34PM (#18158706)
Maybe Tesla receives negative press coverage for its poor workmanship, constant delays, near-unrepairability, bad labor conditions, union-busting, the CEO lying to investors, the CEO being unstable, precarious financial state, unfulfilled promises, reckless deadly computer-assisted driving sold as if it were self-driving, lack of independent competent management, a valuation highly dependent upon retaining a single executive, a valuation wildly overinflated by any objective measure, nonsensical acquisition of a failing home solar company run by a family member of the CEO, nonsensical and distracting forays into products unrelated to building and selling cars, it goes on...

This is not to mention the constant good press it receives.

Re:5G Got me Fired by geezerjay on Sunday October 07, 2018 @03:57AM (#18159382)
I would also add that some side-projects linked directly or indieectly with Musk and/or Tesla also contribute to the erosion of goodwill we're witnessing. For instance, the boring company is marketed as if they've made this gigantic breakthrough in tunneling that no one else in humanity has ever come up while they're actually just a company that bought a commercial tunneler, and hyperloop is marketed as if they're the first guys ever to look at the problem of transporting people very fast through tunnels while they're actally demonstrating they're even completely unaware of some pretty basic constraints and very fundamental problems that need to be solved prior to increasing train speed. Therefore, it's hard not to look at these ventures as if they're real-world eeenactments of the simpsons' monorail episode, and if Musk and Tesla's names are linked to these projects then they simply suffer the backlash.
Re:5G Got me Fired by billylindeman on Sunday October 07, 2018 @03:36AM (#18159314)
It blows my mind how many Tesla apologists/fanboys are in this thread. Liking Elon Musk and thinking Tesla is heading for bankruptcy are not mutually exclusive. I think he's generally a force for good in the tech industry and greater world, but I've been pretty grim on TLSA for almost 3 years now. They are overvalued, under delivering, and Elon has seemed to be in the midst of a manic breakdown pretty much since his breakup with Amber Heard.
Re:5G Got me Fired by arthurcolle on Sunday October 07, 2018 @01:37PM (#18161700)
For what its worth, I'd probably lose my mind too if I was dating Amber Heard and we broke up. Godspeed, hope he recovers soon.
Re:5G Got me Fired by torgian on Sunday October 07, 2018 @12:12AM (#18158804)
Gotta agree. Although I love what his space division is doing. With Mercedes getting into electric cars now, I think people will go for a Mercedes instead of a Tesla, especially if the price is right
Re:5G Got me Fired by deelowe on Sunday October 07, 2018 @12:30AM (#18158847)
Don't forget Porsche, which implies Audi, vw, and Lamborghini as well.
Re:5G Got me Fired by Crontab on Sunday October 07, 2018 @11:06AM (#18160904)
Or maybe the press can just be more truthful about a company that doesn't give them advertising money?
Re:5G Got me Fired by nugga on Sunday October 07, 2018 @01:58AM (#18159051)
I wrote this response because my experience so far is that, while not discounting his twitter antics, Elon is a force of good in this world and is mostly sincere and there seems to be a lot of fud (fear, uncertainty, doubt, often unsubstantiated or just quoting lies) spread around whatever he's doing.

Some sentences or terms you use may be factually correct in some context or way, but you seem to be painting a pretty negative picture chaining them together.

Granted, the media also occasionally report on Tesla kicking ass, but the negative press coverage almost seems like a concerted effort to spread fud every chance the media gets. The media have a vested interest in selling drama and they blow shit out of proportion and created issue where there isn't any.

They misuse their responsibility of shaping public opinion when they for example go crazy on someone taking one puff of a blunt and ignoring almost 3 hours of meaningful conversation with a sentence.

If Tesla is in such a precarious financial state and a sorry ass company, why do investors and banks keep lending and pumping money? Because the fundamentals are solid and anyone actually following the numbers and their mission, as opposed to media fud, knows they are about to skyrocket.

Their valuation may have been inflated especially if you believe the value represented the here and now but the fundamentals haven't changed, in fact they may be even better than expected. Once Tesla hits profitability on the account sheet (they already make close to 20% on every Model 3 sold but are 'losing' money because of heavy investment as far as I can tell), they will shoot to the moon because the media will then report Tesla is suddenly a good company and the optics have changed, even though the fundamentals haven't.

They're betting big on at least mid range Trucking switching electric because according to them it'll be cheaper to operate electric fleets. They got a pickup, the model y, planned to begin production soonish. They can lower their unit prices once they hit massive scales due to multiple gigafactories. They operate their own charging network, no other car manufacturer comes anywhere close to what they have.

Granted, Elon is the hype machine behind companies he's running or involved in, but his cult of personality is not all vanity. Why does Elon take no (1 dollar) salary, still holds some 20% of the stock and works his ass off and drains himself to his detriment on Tesla? Because he seems to be for real, a believer, and he delivers even if it's delayed.

Tesla under his leadership has done a great service to humanity, igniting the transformation to moving away from fossil fuels. The other car makers are lagging behind and only now starting to invest billions into battery manufacturing when Tesla is showing them they're for real.

I thought helping with load balancing and storing more volatile non-fossil energy and the creation of smart local grids and allowing people to get off the grid with their home batteries could be a reasonable endeavor for Tesla's battery division.

Re:5G Got me Fired by jryle70 on Sunday October 07, 2018 @12:52AM (#18158901)
We're in a thread about native ad and misinformation, and here we go a comment that is blatantly spreading misinformation stated as facts.
Re:5G Got me Fired by malnourish on Sunday October 07, 2018 @01:11AM (#18158942)
Would you mind sharing what is misinformation, and what is factual, in the parent comment?
Re:5G Got me Fired by gralx on Sunday October 07, 2018 @05:45AM (#18159734)
Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky, Manufacturing Consent (FTFY)

"Manufacture of consent" is the Walter Lippman term they named the book after.

Re:5G Got me Fired by jandrese on Saturday October 06, 2018 @09:30PM (#18158374)
This sort of problem became more or less inevitable once people stopped paying for content.

With a traditional newspaper your readers are footing at least part of the bill for the articles, so you are beholden to them to keep them informed. At least in theory. These days however the only payment is coming from advertisers, so they are the only ones you need to keep happy.

This is the same problem that TV and Radio news has always had, and why they were considered inferior to newspapers for factual reporting. Of course there are a few outlets that are listener/viewer funded, and they tend to be more highly regarded than their counterparts. Outlets like the BBC, NPR, and PBS.

Theoretically cable news shouldn't have this problem since part of the cost comes from people's cable bills, but other forces have conspired to poison that well.

Re:5G Got me Fired by stickfigure on Sunday October 07, 2018 @01:54AM (#18159042)
With a traditional newspaper your readers are footing at least part of the bill for the articles

When was that exactly?

Back when I used to pay for a physical newspaper thrown at my door, I remember it often said that the price covered printing and delivery and most of the newspaper's income came from advertising. Was this wrong? It doesn't seem like it... it was sub $1 per issue, which seems about an order of magnitude less than what Amazon would charge.

Re:5G Got me Fired by jandrese on Sunday October 07, 2018 @08:58PM (#18163477)
My impression is that in the old days more of the money came from the readers, but as the years went on they didn't track inflation and ended up leaning more heavily on advertisers. Then they died out.
Re:5G Got me Fired by captain_perl on Saturday October 06, 2018 @08:44PM (#18158223)
For those who are not familiar with them term "native advertising", it means integrating the ad into the page content in such a way that it doesn't appear to be an ad at first glance.

In other words, using the same style as the adjacent content, and removing any boxes or rules that separate an ad.

It's pretty far down the slope into dishonesty territory w.r.t. separating content from editorial or advertising, and the FTC should investigate and regulate native ads.

Re:5G Got me Fired by eli on Saturday October 06, 2018 @09:39PM (#18158410)
Native ads should be clearly labeled and disclosed, as with any other ads. This isn’t controversial and is what all serious journalism organizations are already doing.

I don’t buy that the format is inherently any more dangerous than anything else. All ads need to be respectful of the reader regardless of form.

Re:5G Got me Fired by OtterCoder on Sunday October 07, 2018 @02:01AM (#18159059)
Ads are always disrespectful of their victims. They are intrusive and manipulative by nature.

Self respecting marketers will often say that their goal is to inform, but without fail, that "information" is laced and inextricably woven with manipulative psychology, tangential to the product being sold.

Further, in any industry where it can be employed, it chokes out every other form of revenue. How can anyone compete with "free"? Then, inevitably, when ads enter a space, they quickly dominate and poison it.

Re:5G Got me Fired by roenxi on Sunday October 07, 2018 @02:37AM (#18159152)
What you are saying doesn't apply generally. Are you thinking in a specific context?

Without advertising, the take up of new inventions (things like pressure cookers, microwaves, etc) would be significantly slower. There would be mass confusion about how to get access to uncommon services (legal, accounting and building for example). I wouldn't know what half of the companies out there did if they didn't run some advertising somewhere.

I mean, say there is a company called Stratco. They might sell something I'd buy if I knew about it. How do you propose I figure that out if they don't advertise? I'm not about to research them to find out what it is they sell; there are too many companies out there doing random business->business services I don't want to know about. It is a very neat solution for them to figure out what I do for leisure, subsidise it and pay for an ad or few.

Re:5G Got me Fired by wruza on Sunday October 07, 2018 @11:53AM (#18161156)
I second that from my gaming rgb overheat-edition microwave.
Re:5G Got me Fired by oelmekki on Sunday October 07, 2018 @04:32AM (#18159492)
I have a more radical approach to that : I discard any opinion I see in a press article (that is, most of it, usually), and only focus on new facts the article brings.

I don't mean any disrespect for journalists and I'm deeply thankful for their work (I even considered becoming one, as a kid), but I don't care for their opinion. I did once, before the internet, because opinions were valuable, as the only ones you were exposed to were family's and friends'.

But today, the internet is a massive opinion building/sharing machine. The last thing we need is the press to do it as well, instead it must be the place where we can expect to find facts and fact checking. I don't have any problem with random people sharing their opinion either - it's cool we can do it - but now I expect more from the press.

Now, I'm well aware solving the native ad problem does not solve the real problem : press has hard time keeping afloat. My usual suggestion about that is for browsers to include means for micro-payment (be it using google pay, cryptocurrencies, apple pay, whatever pay, a new standard, I don't care). The main problem with paywalls to me is that they expect users to subscribe for monthly subscriptions, renewed until they're manually cancelled. This is not how people consume news anymore. They come to an article because of its content, they wish to see that content, they don't want to see other articles. We need to allow people to quickly pay a small fee to see a single article, without all the hassle of using a credit card.

Re:5G Got me Fired by shams93 on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:11PM (#18158503)
Its a more insidious form of fake news than foreign intelligence disinfo operations.
Re:5G Got me Fired by jimjimjim on Saturday October 06, 2018 @10:45PM (#18158591)
A good filter for life seems to be 'if you don't want to be manipulated look for the one with a price' or tldr: 'Don't trust free'.
Re:5G Got me Fired by BrandoElFollito on Sunday October 07, 2018 @04:22AM (#18159460)
You have to trust free when you are in tech. Free powers list of internet, infrastructurs, etc.
Re:5G Got me Fired by dev_dull on Saturday October 06, 2018 @08:43PM (#18158215)
I don’t think there’s any change needed. Why prop up the status quo with bureaucracy? Mainstream media was shedding eyes and under scrutiny well before “fake news”.

Let MSM die its slow death while new and better services make their debut.

Re:5G Got me Fired by closeparen on Saturday October 06, 2018 @08:57PM (#18158279)
Mainstream media had what was called the “Chinese wall” between the ad business and the newsroom. For a sales guy to even speak with an editor would be highly inappropriate. It wasn’t perfect, but exceptions would have at least violated social and professional norms with rank and file journalism school graduates. Alternative media (like what the corpses of the old mainstream press have become) don’t even pretend to have that sort of discipline. Their funding model is to promote an individual, business, or political agenda, straight up. On this one, I mourn the loss of the traditional press.
Re:5G Got me Fired by WalterGR on Saturday October 06, 2018 @09:18PM (#18158349)
Please define mainstream media. Are you using it in the right-wing sense of “media that isn’t our personal hagiographers”?

> Mainstream media was shedding eyes

News has been “shedding” paid subscribers. Shedding eyes? Citation needed.

> and under scrutiny

By who?