News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by yourapostasy on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:42AM (#18146648)
> ...every hardware pentesting shop will be going after these boards like they're looking for golden tickets.

The way the original story was written, it suggested that four subcontractors were identified, and almost 30 targets selected, with the implied suggestion that either the boards were custom special order boards, or destined for a specific lot order made by a customer. If true, then it is unlikely these boards will be found in the wild except by slipping through those almost 30 targets into the used market.

Supermicro has about 600 board SKUs, so finding these needles in the haystack is likely more feasible by approaching data centers offering to help find the boards for free, in return for allowing the pentesting firms to take physical possession of such found boards.

The story did reveal that the original "tell" that gave away the chip was odd but not obviously malicious at first glance network traffic, and that the suspected intent was implementing an Advanced Persistent Threat model. The article also mentioned the chips were connected with the BMC, but it wasn't specified in the article whether or not the chips got out onto the Net.

So finding the boards in the wild probably will focus upon finding them in the same manner, over the network. Power down the server, let the BMC stay powered on, and watch for unwarranted network activity. Or boot a Linux on a stick that deliberately does as little as possible and premises networking allows it to do just enough routing out to the Net to capture traces of what unauthorized network traffic is trying to do, and watch for unwarranted network activity, in case the chip design is clever, and hides its activity until it detects the mainboard is already running before trying to inject its network payloads onto the mainboard's network interfaces.

What are others' thoughts on how to find these "golden ticket" boards?

Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by dvfjsdhgfv on Friday October 05, 2018 @05:51AM (#18146873)
That's the interesting bit. Having done so much to hide the exploit your most important aim is to hide it's presence. Anything that would just "connect to a Chinese server" would be discovered immediately. If the Bloomberg story is true, the network traffic scheme must have been extremely sophisticated to fool so many network security specialists at top companies for such a long time.

This, or the story is false, purposely or not.

Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by TheOtherHobbes on Friday October 05, 2018 @08:41AM (#18147636)
I'd appreciate a detailed explanation of the steps needed to get from putting this chip on a motherboard to actionable intelligence useful to a hostile nation state.

If we're talking about being able to make changes at the OS level, surely those should be relatively easy to spot?

If we're talking about copying packets, wouldn't that be useless under most circumstances?

If we're talking about doing whatever on a mass scale, surely most of the data would be junk and a huge and very clever backend would be needed to sift out the useful elements?

Presumably none of this is impossible, but I haven't yet seen a good description of how it's all supposed to fit together.

Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by rocqua on Friday October 05, 2018 @11:19AM (#18148807)
Something like triggering a memory-read of a specific address the moment you see a TLS diffie helman exchange on the wire? The idea being that you can recover the session key, and thus break the encryption retroactively.

That requires more than just access to the network, but it is rather simple.

With just access to the network, perhaps one could do spoofed DNS responses that are never seen on the network? A very simple '1% of the time, set the gmail.com A record to the chinese gmail IP' might be enough.

One could create mayhem by sending false ARP or DHCP responses, but that is only mayhem. Perhaps if it is externally triggerable it is useful offensively as DoS.

Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by ytjohn on Friday October 05, 2018 @08:06AM (#18147425)
Most places I know of isolate their OOB management network, requiring a vpn or jumpbox to access it. However, if someone did let their OOB network full outbound access, I could see this slipping through. I could imagine that simply going to a CDN or cloud provider like AWS/Cloudfront/cloudflare/akamai with a dns lookup along the lines of updates.supermicro.cdn-front.com wouldn't be too suspicious. At that point, you'd be looking for dns lookups and not firewall hits.

If you are blocking outbound, I could still this going unnoticed if you're not actively reviewing denials.

But, if you are properly watching dns lookups from OOB and it's anything other than necessary services (ntp, ldap, syslog), then this would get picked up pretty quickly.

Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by isostatic on Friday October 05, 2018 @11:34AM (#18148935)
> However, if someone did let their OOB network full outbound access, I could see this slipping through.

Quite, especially in small networks and inline ilos, entirely possible that people plug the ilo (ipmi etc) to a more open network. Sure, nothing in, but no block on stuff going out.

Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by fulafel on Friday October 05, 2018 @08:12AM (#18147452)
Sounds like many things would have to go right in the defender's court. Optimism is not a good defense strategy :)
Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by ytjohn on Friday October 05, 2018 @08:25AM (#18147520)
Heh. One colleague has "Hope is not a valid deployment strategy" as a signature.

Most places might be blocking this type of activity by default. For most of our security audits, it's just assumed that the SM IPMI or Dell idrac is vulnerable to one exploit or another. We mitigate that by controlling the traffic. I feel this is common practice in most places that understand vlans and firewalls.

However, while blocking is easy, being aware of something like this is on another level altogether. Unicorn jumping over a rainbow level rare. You really have to be logging outbound attempts and dns lookups. Where I work, there is a full security team and they are at an insane level where they log the allowed traffic. One told me that the allowed traffic is more interesting than the denied traffic. Denied just tells them what we anticipated, while active helps them establish a pattern and look for deviations.

Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by dvfjsdhgfv on Friday October 05, 2018 @08:58AM (#18147722)
That's my point. Security people were analyzing network traffic for decades trying to spot something that doesn't fit, host-wise, pattern-wise or even packet-wise (see The Museum of Broken Packets[0], for example). And someone managed to somehow hide all this traffic from security experts working for Amazon and Apple, for months or years? I'm very curious to see how.

[0] http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/mobp/

Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by fulafel on Friday October 05, 2018 @09:22AM (#18147866)
I think you misread - "Unicorn jumping over a rainbow level rare" was about catching it, not missing it.
Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by hef19898 on Friday October 05, 2018 @07:43AM (#18147312)
That is a good question, did the Chinese target specific customers, identifying the relevant sub-contractors and modify these boards?

Or are these boards commercial-of-the-shelf things that are mass produced?

In the latter case these boards can just end up anywhere, in the first case not so much. As a result using commodity boards would provide some degree of protection against such an attack as slipping a manipulated one into a specific target's servers would be a game of chance. Also the risk that the attack is discovered would be much higher.

Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by jnbiche on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:27PM (#18149430)
> That is a good question, did the Chinese target specific customers, identifying the relevant sub-contractors and modify these boards?

Why not go read the story? It addresses this question and many others HNers are asking now. It's actually a fairly detailed story, although annoyingly short on technical detail (which could have been because their sources refused to go into much detail).

Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by hef19898 on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:52PM (#18150728)
I did read it, so if it was mentioned I missed the part where Bloomberg stated if it was targeted at specific orders and thus customers or if it was seeded into the supply chain to see what sticks.

So, if you know the answer, why not just providing the information? ;-)

Re:What Businessweek got wrong about Apple by sitkack on Friday October 05, 2018 @11:11AM (#18148740)
I think the Command and Control traffic will be much harder to spot. In fact it might be dormant until an operative is on the same network and wakes it up.