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Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by hinkley on Thursday October 04, 2018 @12:25PM (#18141325)
This still sounds nuts to me.

Two thoughts:

> they typically will not be thinking they are doing anything wrong. They are just testing if you notice and if you do not they will say it makes no difference for you but saves them costs.

This is how children behave. Still feels like you’re rewarding bad behavior. You’re enabling them.

I think it’s more that you’ve valued the low per unit price over having a healthy contract. Your vendor is incentivized to make all of their money off of externalities and your company think it’s cheaper to outwit them than to demand QC on their end. Whose brand will be sullied if you miss some of these units and a customer finds the spyware? Not theirs.

And second thought, shouldn’t serial numbers be coming off the line in ascending order? The kind of work they are doing would require taking parts off the line and putting them back later so odd lots of SNs are the ones you need to verify.

You could also be mandating how many boards are allowed or that the SNs go on early in the build process.

Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by chaostheory on Thursday October 04, 2018 @01:21PM (#18141790)
This is just how low trust societies function for hundreds if not thousands of years. This is also why families tend to be much stronger in these places. The American idea of a strong family is different from what I'm describing, since it just centers on immediate family. My definition of strong family bonds, implies both closeness and dependency not just on your immediate family, but even on your distant cousins on both sides. It's close if not the same to how Mediterranean and Hispanic cultures view families. I guess you can call it a clan mentality. I'm now wary of countries where families are really strong ie clans. It's not always the case, but it tends to mean the rule of law is weak and corruption is crazy.

When you can't even trust that food is real, and when you have to bribe even low level provincial government employees (can you imagine needing to bribe DMW workers or even police?) - what else is an average person to do except to treat it as the norm in order to survive? Unless you're an elite, the only other option is to leave, and not everyone has that choice. Very little is considered wrong over there, aside from criticizing the powers that be; as long as it helps your clan. It doesn't help when Western companies and governments look the other way, as we see in past news stories and even the comments here.

I'm not condoning the behavior; just explaining.

Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by ddoolin on Thursday October 04, 2018 @02:39PM (#18142391)
Not much to add, but want to note that you're spot on. I've encountered this SO many times over the years and this is always the explanation I'm given. At first it just made me indignant, too, and to some degree I guess it still does, but now I just try to let it go.
Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by Nokinside on Thursday October 04, 2018 @02:35PM (#18142356)
It's not rewarding bad behavior when you take it into account in the deal. Moralization is useless when you do business with different cultures. When you notice something what would be out of ordinary in your culture, you estimate the cost and find out how locals solve it. Different cultures have different kinks and people living there know to adjust to them. It can be fun to figure out how other cultures function.

From a naive Finnish perspective you could see American business culture as dishonest. People lie all the time and promise things that are false and you need massive amount of legalese or they fuck you over. When they say something, you can't trust it as much as you can trust a Finn (or Swede). American way is to lie to your face in pre-negotiation but then be truthful to the legally binding agreement. Germans or Belgians are more truthful beforehand and they stick to deals better without legal enforcement looming over them, but require more detailed written deals than Finns. Who is right? Should we punish Americans for their behavior or adopt their culture?

Of course not. You must understand that that the level of acceptable exaggeration, overpromise and bullshit and trickery is strictly culture dependent and relative. Someone is dishonest if they "lie this amount above average" in their cultural context. After you make an adjustment, you know how to get the truth.

Chinese manufacturers have the capability to stick to standards, take responsibility and deliver high quality stuff. It's just more dependent on personal relationship. Just placing an order has less trust as default. Either you develop "quanxi" with your suppliers or work trough some third party that understands both worlds. Third party understands what you need and knows how to get it from the Chinese suppliers because they have a relationship.

Chinese pay the cost that comes with their business culture. They can't network as fast as you can in open western cultures with more default trust between strangers.

Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by LolNoGenerics on Thursday October 04, 2018 @01:11PM (#18141715)
Altering components to something cheaper is common practice for every company that is willing to exploit the fuck out of their customers. Look at the food industry. In EU there is control, in US thare are sanctions. But it is up to the governments because companies are to opportunistic to change. As long you can (re)sell the junk you get, you're fine, if you can't you upgrade "QA".
Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by candiodari on Thursday October 04, 2018 @02:16PM (#18142230)
Both the EU and US have internal controls on food quality and sanctions.

Contrary to the impression your post gives, the EU has much more "sanctions" against food (esp. imports) than the US does, and is generally taxing much heavier and restricting many more things. Importing essentially any milk product into the EU is only possible on an exception basis. Trump has a LOT more work before extra sanctions in the US will become comparable to the EU ones.

What is often not said is that the EU not only has sanctions on its borders against food products, it actually has internal sanctions and regulations that are purely political in nature.

For example "champagne" in the EU can only be made within a particular region in France. Which leads to funny, in a sad way, consequences:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/15/eu-fears-in...

This applies to many products. Wines, cheeses, cakes, fruit, meat, potatoes, candy ... and is generally absolutely ridiculous:

https://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/Article/2014/11/13/Interac...

For your other part of your comment, I am unwilling to give a real answer. Obviously the US checks it's food quality. It's made different choices than the EU, famously the US allows hormone "enhanced" meat, but it does check food quality and safety. There are heavy penalties for breaking them.

Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by clear_dg on Thursday October 04, 2018 @03:26PM (#18142882)
Champagne is literally the name of the area where the product comes from. It makes perfect sense that anything that doesn't come from the region Champagne, isn't champagne... Call it sparkling wine, it's fine, but not champagne. And it applies to most local products. Camembert? Comes from a specific town, which is called Camembert. Beaujolais? The name of the province. And the list goes on. It doesn't sound "absolutely ridiculous" to me.
Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by newhere420 on Thursday October 04, 2018 @04:55PM (#18143580)
"generally absolutely ridiculous"

Did you look at the map? It's nearly all things with a place name in the product name. For example, "Welsh Beef". Why is it reasonable for a consumer to buy Welsh Beef and for it to possibly have come from somewhere other than Wales?

It seems to me, more like generalising the concept of trademarks to place names rather than just company names and brand name.

Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by jimjimjim on Thursday October 04, 2018 @03:25PM (#18142858)
and no kinder surprise in the us.
[dead]
[dead]
Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by pjkundert on Thursday October 04, 2018 @01:50PM (#18142039)
Conflating culture with race is ... racist.

Not all cultures are great. If you are claiming “all cultures are great”, then perhaps “great” has lost any useful meaning.

Discrimination, as the ability to discriminate features to identify useful pattens, is not *-ist; it’s a critical skill that is being sullied by some neo-intellectual BS that passes for “equality” or something.

The ability to identify patterns of behaviour prevalent to a class of suppliers and avoid them, rewarding other supplies — even from the same area of the world — who are better; even “great” perhaps, is a valuable skill...

But perhaps I’m wrong. They’re all great. Carry on.

Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by mieses on Thursday October 04, 2018 @05:39PM (#18143903)
Give one example of a non-ethnic Chinese person who is considered to be culturally Chinese.

It's the norm in the west to not conflate culture with race. But to think that this is the norm in the rest of the world is to project your value system on others.

Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by dchichkov on Thursday October 04, 2018 @01:43PM (#18141982)
Culture is not equivalent to race. Cultures that permit slavery, for example, are not that great.
Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by NikolaNovak on Thursday October 04, 2018 @01:54PM (#18142064)
I had the same initial gut/emotional reaction, but after a re-read, not _sure_ if it's justified.

If we define "a culture" as set of sociological customs, value systems, expected behaviours and stimuli/response criteria; and if we define "culture greatness" as such sociological customs, value systems, and behaviours that lead to specified and asserted goals;

than one can reasonably compare and contrast cultures in meeting (or even striving) to these goals, and thus discuss their greatness.

Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by logfromblammo on Thursday October 04, 2018 @02:16PM (#18142228)
Only to the extent that the relationship between race and culture is causative rather than correlative.

If forced at gunpoint to trust one person in my supply chain, I would instantly choose the Taiwanese-American in San Jose over the mainland-Chinese in Shenzhen, every time. Likewise, I think exactly the same Indian employee will be more productive if physically transplanted to Silicon Valley and surrounded by assimilated Indian-Americans than if set up in an office in Bangalore surrounded at all times by other Indians and Indian businesses. And equally likewise, I have noted a large difference in my own work productivity doing similar tasks under different employers, or even in different work groups under the same employer.

So it isn't even national culture, racial culture, or regional culture, but also corporate culture. Breaking news on the Obvious Channel: social apes found to be heavily influenced by their peers.

Ancestor post was obliquely referring to the oft-reported tendency of mainland-Chinese manufacturers to try to cheat their customers. They have been caught copying protected or trade-secret IP, counterfeiting, substituting cheaper out-of-spec parts, and inserting hidden hardware backdoors. Outside of China, engineering/construction companies tend to import Chinese subcontractors rather than use any local labor. That's all just PRC-Chinese business culture. If you pluck individual employees out of a Chinese firm, and hire them into a multinational based out of another country, they will be perfectly fine, aside from the slightly elevated possibility that PRC intelligence will aggressively recruit them as an asset to steal exploitable business secrets. If you can manage to pull everyone they care about out of the reach of the PRC, they will likely be a great investment for you.

Clearly, the national-political-business culture of mainland PRC China is hostile to businesses that have significant interests outside of China. The government there is racist, controlling, and mercantilist-protectionist, and the businesses with a physical presence have to fit in to that culture in order to exist, along with the traditional system of guanxi social capital. It makes them difficult to work with, but as long as the price is right, it's still worth it to try. You just don't give them access to any secrets, and make sure your QA department is full of no-nonsense hardasses. And as mentioned elsewhere in this topic, that means you may have to measure total mass and moment of inertia around multiple rotational axes in order to find any unauthorized modifications that might expose you to company-bankrupting liability in your business culture. You can't "trust, but verify"; you might just have to check every unit of every shipment.

As for culture culture--wushu martial arts, the action movies including it, silk, noodles, jadeite carvings, fine porcelain, traditional architecture, religions, herbalism, the woo-woo pseudo-religion attached to the medicine traditions, etc.--Chinese culture is indisputably great, especially considering that it's what's left after the PRC government tried to annihilate most of it as part of their revolution.

Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by SOMABOFH on Thursday October 04, 2018 @01:41PM (#18141959)
culture != race
Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by DonaldPShimoda on Thursday October 04, 2018 @01:24PM (#18141816)
> You're starting to realize that not all cultures are that great.

What measures a culture's greatness? How can this value be empirically deduced?

Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by alex_anglin on Thursday October 04, 2018 @01:51PM (#18142049)
Honesty and trustworthiness could be two such measures.
Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by dwaltrip on Thursday October 04, 2018 @02:34PM (#18142344)
There are many important and worthwhile discussions that our empirical tools are not able to significantly contribute to.

That's not to say that there is a such thing as single-dimension "greatness" metric. However, outlawing value judgments is going too far in the other direction. Of course, such things can be quite sensitive, and should be done thoughtfully.

Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by SOMABOFH on Thursday October 04, 2018 @01:58PM (#18142097)
breadth, quality and equal application of civil rights.

the value of civic participation and honesty

trust

Re:The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate Am... by lmilcin on Thursday October 04, 2018 @03:54PM (#18143128)
It is called business. The company's ONLY duty is to bring profit to its investors and management is legally bound to maximise it. Now, the definition of profit may differ as well as what is profitable and what is not, but the company is legally obligated to work to bring profit and if you throw a good deal because you don't like it you better explain it to your investors.

Whether you like what your supplier does or does not is of no concern. If couple of units can be detected and written off it is treated as cost and you move on to decide if it is still profitable and whether you can get better deal somewhere else.

You let you emotions rule and it just means you are not fit for the job.