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Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by meko on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @10:45AM (#18122165)
Companies don't really deserve praise, practically ever because their motives are ultimately guided by profits. They only act in the interest of revenue. Sometimes those interests align with the employees, but let's not pretend this isn't self preservation on amazon's behalf.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by mikybee93 on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @10:56AM (#18122259)
That's silly. You could also say that humans don't really deserve praise since our motives are ultimately guided by our self interest. We only do things to make ourselves feel good, or make ourselves look better. I think that companies have many paths towards self preservation, and that choosing the paths that lead to a better world deserve praise regardless of motive.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by komali2 on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @11:10AM (#18122385)
I disagree there, because all throughout history are examples of genuine heroes who stood to benefit not at all from their actions. Vince Coleman[0] comes to mind.

Humans can be motivated by many things, profit and looking good included. I'm vaguely aware of a philosophical branch that postulates that all actions are selfish, but that ain't science and so I disagree. People will sacrifice their pyramid of needs towards s greater good, I've never heard of a company utterly scuttling profits over the greater good though.

On that note, in this case Amazon obviously is shedding profit for a greater good here, especially if they actually lobby, so in this case I believe they (particularly the people that made this decision) deserve praise.

(0)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Coleman_%28train_dispatc...?

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by darawk on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:03PM (#18122878)
It doesn't matter whether they're doing it for a 'greater good' or not. You should praise them anyway. They took steps to create the world that you want. It doesn't matter why they did it.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by wstuartcl on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:25PM (#18123121)
I would praise them if they simply made the change before being shown to know about large % of their staff being forced to take subsidies to be able to live in national press. I don't tend to praise minimum standards of ethical and moral behavior.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by darawk on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:48PM (#18123358)
You think paying people $15/hour is a minimum standard of ethical and moral behavior?
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by wstuartcl on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @03:09PM (#18124730)
Yes. I think being one of the largest/most profitable companies in the US while paying people the minimum wage required by law -- which also happens to ensure most of those employees can't survive without government subsidies in their locals is well below the minimum standard for ethical and moral behavior.

Reverse, Do you think that a company such as amazon should be paying their fulltime and part time employee a wage that requires government subsidies (that you and I pay for) to survive while enjoying the amount of revenue and profit they are receiving?

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by darawk on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @03:40PM (#18125003)
> Reverse, Do you think that a company such as amazon should be paying their fulltime and part time employee a wage that requires government subsidies (that you and I pay for) to survive while enjoying the amount of revenue and profit they are receiving?

Yes, I do. I think most people misunderstand government subsidies when they make this argument. The idea that the company you work for is responsible for maintaining your standard of living is a weird one, that doesn't really come from any obvious moral principle. We, as a society, have decided that we don't want people to have a standard of living below a certain level. Therefore we, as a society, should provide the resources to ensure that that happens. If Amazon wants to come to those people and say "we'll give you $X/hour to do this task for us", and those people say "Yes", then I don't see any good reason for that to change the moral calculus of society at large, or for Amazon to suddenly become responsible for that person's general welfare.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by andrepd on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:58PM (#18123464)
It does matter. In my view: if they were "forced" by bad publicity to do a net positive thing it hardly matters at all (except for the employees in question), because the systems and structures and incentives to keep acting selfishly and greedily are still there intact. No real change was effected.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by darawk on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @01:18PM (#18123653)
I disagree completely. They didn't have to capitulate to those forces. They chose to. If you reward them for doing so, they'll capitulate more readily in the future than if you do not. This is really simple: carrot and stick. Everyone knows this approach to literally everything works. People seem to want to discard it here because they don't want to let go of their negative emotions, because they've come to identify with a sense of moral outrage completely divorced from any objective social goals.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by shawnz on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @01:08PM (#18123555)
Likewise for the system which caused them to act in the greater good - the demands of their customers. How is that any different than when a human is "forced" to act by their sense of empathy or duty?
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by notafraudster on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @01:05PM (#18123525)
The three possible target audiences for saying something are yourself (i.e. getting catharsis by articulating one's beliefs), others (i.e. that there is a network effect to him convincing you and you convincing others and shifting a social consensus), or the subject of the speech (i.e. Amazon will read Hacker News and make decisions based on the extent to which the comments flatter them).

On that basis, is the implication here that hearing anonymous and vague internet praise actually tips the utility calculus of the company in some way?

Because if not it's hard to know why anyone should praise them -- as opposed to acknowledging the decision, or silently mentally updating one's assessment, or not engaging with the news at all, or criticizing them for not doing more.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by darawk on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @01:16PM (#18123635)
> On that basis, is the implication here that hearing anonymous and vague internet praise actually tips the utility calculus of the company in some way?

In aggregate, yes. You seem to be trying to reduce this to "who cares about silly comments on the internet", but of course, that isn't the point. The point is about where our moral sentiments ought lie, collectively. And yes, the rollup of all the individuals making throwaway comments on the internet actually do synthesize much of our collective worldview. So yes, I do think that anonymous and vague internet praise actually tips the utility calculus of all companies. If you don't, then you haven't been paying much attention for the last decade.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by eropple on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:19PM (#18123032)
"Ends not means" is a nigh-universally dangerous philosophy.

Motives matter.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by komali2 on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @02:08PM (#18124155)
How does motive relate to means here? I think an "ends vs means" argument would be around whether it was ok to cull half their workforce to pay for this wage increase.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by darawk on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:21PM (#18123054)
My comment was about 'motivation'. Which is neither ends, nor means.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by marnett on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:23PM (#18123080)
Congress was looking to tax companies whose employees redeem federal benefits due to low wages. Walmart and Amazon we're the poster companies discussed in the legislation. This permanently removes that pressure and prepares Amazon for the inevitable. Get your head out of the sand, if you think this isn't a strategic play from one of the most valuable and business-savy corporate institutions on the planet you are being willfully ignorant.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by crdoconnor on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:53PM (#18123411)
>On that note, in this case Amazon obviously is shedding profit for a greater good here

They're obviously caving into pressure - from unions, social activists and Bernie Sanders.

>especially if they actually lobby

Which they'll do especially because they don't want to be put at a competitive disadvantage by companies who pay minimum wage.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by xtian on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @11:18AM (#18122459)
> You could also say that humans don't really deserve praise since our motives are ultimately guided by our self interest

You could say that and you would be right. Why should anyone praise you if your underlying motivations are self-centered? You seem to be asserting that this is fundamental human nature, however, which is a belief which has been refuted plenty of times throughout history.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by bandrami on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @11:46AM (#18122724)
Why shouldn't self-interested action be praiseworthy?
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by xtian on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:11PM (#18122959)
If the rules of the game are that we only act out of self-interest, then I would only praise you if it directly benefits me in some way. Is that the sort of relationship you would like to have with everyone in your own life?
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by bandrami on Wednesday October 03, 2018 @09:49AM (#18130130)
If you've oversimplified psychology and behavior that much there's no point asking "why" anyone would praise anyone.

You had as an unstated axiom that self-interested action are not praiseworthy. You still have not made an argument for that, though you have pointed out that a world composed only of self-interested action would be an unpleasant one (I agree).

However, using a more realistic understanding, where actions come from a multitude of motivations, why do you consider a given action's being self-interested to exclude it from praiseworthiness?

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by xtian on Wednesday October 03, 2018 @11:03AM (#18130880)
Sorry, the post I responded to asserted that “our motives are ultimately guided by our self interest”. It seems like you are now applying my words to a different context.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by Vektorweg on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @11:16AM (#18122444)
It depends to what degree a person or company acted positively on its/their own. Amazon would have never done it, if it wasn't for the immense pressure. So, it is not worth much praise.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by Applejinx on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:09PM (#18122932)
I am, however, prepared to order something through them in hopes of making them instinctually associate this type of behavior with reward.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by marnett on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:25PM (#18123110)
You can't apply pavlovian psychology to corporations. Only unless it involves stock tickers and executive bonuses.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by Moodles on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @11:47AM (#18122736)
So exhausting. Give them a break. They did a nice thing.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by pkulak on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @11:31AM (#18122599)
Then they don't deserve shame either, right?
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by mindcrime on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @11:06AM (#18122349)
Companies don't really deserve praise, practically ever because their motives are ultimately guided by profits.

That's not actually true.. it's a caricatured straw-man argument, usually employed by people who want to attack Capitalism in the general sense.

Of course companies have to make a profit to survive; but not all companies ruthlessly optimize every single variable to squeeze out the last $0.0000001 of profit, regardless of the side effects. At the end of the day companies are made up of people, and even if big-shot CEO's tend to have more pyschopathic tendencies than average, they're still human beings. And they usually answer to boards, and are advised by other managers, who are also human beings.

Not saying all companies are noble, virtuous, and pure or anything. But hyperbole in the other direction is just as inaccurate.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by chc on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @01:22PM (#18123696)
That's odd. I usually see that argument employed the opposite way — to dismiss criticisms of companies by suggesting that there is no moral dimension to a corporation's actions, and thus it is unreasonable to ask a company to do anything for the good of society or criticize it for failing to do so, because a corporation's purpose is merely to seek profit.

I agree with you, though. The idea that companies have to be like zombies, mindlessly shambling toward revenue, is false. If a company acts that way, it was a choice on somebody's part, not an immutable law of nature. If somebody in charge decides they want it to act differently, they have that option too.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by solipsism on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @11:27AM (#18122565)
Don't know why you're being downvoted. Since the 70s people have been throwing around this "corporations must ruthlessly pursue profit and profit alone" idea as is it's a truism. It's not even close to true, neither as normatively or empirically.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by rpedela on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @11:58AM (#18122833)
The modern world was built by corporations. Access to clean water, cheap and healthy food, energy, infrastructure. Yes taxes fund a lot of it but it is corporations that largely do the work at least in the US. Being for-profit is a good thing on the whole because that enables the corporation to continue solving problems for more people. Obviously there is a dark side too. The pursuit of profit left uncheck leads to harming the environment, screwing people out of money, etc which is why regulators are needed.

To say corporations are all bad all the time is bullshit. Likewise to say corporations are all good all the time is also bullshit. Like everything, there are pros and cons. Overall I think our capitalist economy does more good than bad. If it didn't, none of us would be able to be having this debate because we would be too worried about the next meal.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by SolaceQuantum on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:09PM (#18122930)
> Access to clean water, cheap and healthy food, energy, infrastructure.

Clean water access? Paid for my government. Cheap and healthy food? Government subsidies. Energy? Government funds majority of research. Infrastructure was mostly inlaid by Government implemented New Deal/other job creation programs.

Corporations had little to no involvement in 'doing the work' here. Access to cheap/healthy food was before corporations were the majority of agriculture due to government subsidy. Energy is largely built on research which is largely funded by the government. The majority of interstate groundwork as it's been laid out today was started by the government's roadbuilding job-creation programs.

While large legal entities may have their benefits, one shouldn't subscribe undue merit to them in the pursuit of attempting to dissuade undue chagrin.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by rpedela on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:22PM (#18123068)
As I said, taxes, aka government subsidies, paid for or continues to pay for a lot of my examples. The railroads were all built by corporations. ExxonMobil is a corporation, Comcast is a corporation, even your local utility for water, etc is likely a corporation. Corporations do much of the work, the government just pays for it with taxes.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by mmsimanga on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @12:32PM (#18123201)
Government doesn't generate any money. They get the money from taxing employees of the large corporations. It is a symbiotic relationship.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by chillwaves on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @02:15PM (#18124219)
Are you saying the government does not generate value?
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by mmsimanga on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @03:38PM (#18124995)
I meant government does not generate taxes. It's people and the companies they work for that pay the tax which government then uses. So it's disingenuous of parent to claim government alone is responsible for the good it does.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by anticensor on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @04:50PM (#18125584)
It does, but it is different from fiscal value used in economics.
Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by briandear on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @11:41AM (#18122691)
Employees are driven by their own self-interest, so we ought not praise their efforts either right?

There is no such thing as altruism: everyone has their agenda.

Re:Amazon raises minimum wage to $15 for all US employees by hannasanarion on Tuesday October 02, 2018 @01:25PM (#18123724)
So what you're saying is, Amazon's self-interest in making tons of money for its shareholders is just as valid as its workers' self-interest in not starving to death?