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Re:Questions by qaq on Sunday September 30, 2018 @11:24AM (#18106543)
This will sound horrible but is it rational? E.g. say you are building a huge hospital and due to the above it will take 4 years longer at 2x the cost so basically you could loose X lives due to hospital not being there and due to increased cost of care.
Re:Questions by JauntTrooper on Sunday September 30, 2018 @11:55AM (#18106674)
Yes, it is rational. We should live in a society where the expected human sacrifice of a construction project should be 0.

Pure utilitarianism leads to outcomes that are clearly out of step with almost everyone's moral codes. For example you could kill someone and take their organs to save the lives of 4-5 people. Is it rational that we're not allowed to do that? Why do some people get to keep 2 kidneys when there are others with none?

This is solved at least somewhat by using 'rule utilitarianism' instead of 'act utilitarianism'. Society is better off as a whole if we adhere to rules such as protection of the human body or safety regulations when constructing buildings.

Re:Questions by tzs on Sunday September 30, 2018 @02:19PM (#18107464)
> For example you could kill someone and take their organs to save the lives of 4-5 people. Is it rational that we're not allowed to do that? Why do some people get to keep 2 kidneys when there are others with none?

There was a pretty good short story, "Dibs" by Brian Plante, about that published in the April 2004 issue of Analog Science Fiction and Fact.

Everyone was required to be registered in the transplant matching system. Occasionally you'd receive a letter telling you that someone was going to die soon unless they got one of your organs. That person now had dibs on that organ, and if anything happened to you before they died they got it.

Usually you would get another letter a couple weeks or so later telling you that the person no longer had dibs, which generally meant that they had died.

Sometimes, though, you'd get a second dibs letter while you already had one organ under dibs.

And sometimes you'd get a dibs letter when you already had two organs under dibs...meaning if you died now it would save three lives. At that point you were required to report in and your organs were taken to save those three other lives.

The story concerned someone who worked for the transplant matching agency who got a second dibs letter and was quite worried. He illegally used his insider access to find out who the people were who had dibs on him, and started digging around to try to convince himself they were terrible people who didn't deserve to survive to justify illegally interfering, if I recall correctly (I only read the story once, when it was in the current issue).

I don't remember what happened after that. I just remember thinking that it was an interesting story and explored some interesting issues.

Re:Questions by raldi on Sunday September 30, 2018 @12:12PM (#18106747)
Do you believe we should make the national speed limit 25? If not, you're accepting that people will die needlessly, and that the value of a human life is not, in fact, infinite.
Re:Questions by ball_of_lint on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:58PM (#18107349)
The value of a human life is not infinite, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth more than a certain amount of time spent on a construction project. The people who make executive choices about construction projects should not decide that it is acceptable for x people to die on this project in exchange for y fewer months construction time. Accidents happen, but we should not plan to trade lives.

Consider if by sacrificing someone on an altar you could magically cause several months of construction work to happen overnight. That would still be murder.

Re:Questions by raldi on Sunday September 30, 2018 @02:03PM (#18107378)
Sorry, let me clarify: I meant my question literally. May I ask what your answer is?
Re:Questions by carapace on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:59PM (#18107353)
FWIW, I would [make the national speed limit 25] if I could. (With some hopefully obvious qualifications.)

The current traffic system as an insane "death and mayhem lottery" that we force ourselves to play, with out respect of youth, age or anything.

The current interest and action towards bike-friendly cities is a symptom, I think, of a healing of societies' psyches. We have been pretty brutal to each other since the Younger Dryas, and it's only recently that we've started to calm down and think about what we really want our civilization to be like.

Re:Questions by ttty on Sunday September 30, 2018 @03:19PM (#18107832)
Ok, so from 50 to 25 will reduce some deaths. That's right. But now we can reduce to 20, will reduce even more deaths. Then 15, 10... Where do we stop?
Re:Questions by carapace on Sunday September 30, 2018 @04:41PM (#18108288)
Fair point, and I have two answers for you.

The real thing I would advocate (if this weren't a beautiful Sunday afternoon, calling me from my keyboard) is a design for traffic that began from the premise of three (or four) interconnected but separate networks, one each for pedestrians, bikes, and rail, and maybe one network of specialized freeways for trucks and buses. Personal cars would be a luxury (unless you live in the country) that few would need (rather than a cornerstone of our economy) with rentals taking up the slack for vacations and such.

But if you're interested in this sort of thing, don't bother with my blathering, go read Christopher Alexander.

My other answer is really just an invitation to a kind of thought experiment: what if we really did restrict ourselves to just walking, biking, and trains? How would civilization look in that alternate reality?

Re:Questions by taneq on Monday October 01, 2018 @03:29AM (#18110644)
And what is the real human cost when we factor in the number of human lives wasted sitting in traffic at stupidly low speeds.

If decreasing your speed from 100km/h to 50km/h gives you a 1% lower chance of dying in a road traffic accident, but you spend an additional 2% of your life stuck in traffic, is that a win?

Re:Questions by erikpukinskis on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:05PM (#18107037)
Has this been tried? I would expect more speeding and maybe even more fatalities.
Re:Questions by raldi on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:11PM (#18107072)
Not if there were an ironclad law that cars have to be manufacturered to be physically incapable of exceeding that speed.
Re:Questions by mhjas on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:35PM (#18107212)
That is essentially how "vision zero" works, but with the right speed for the right conditions.

https://youtu.be/7kIFegy4fII?t=1478

Re:Questions by XorNot on Sunday September 30, 2018 @12:18PM (#18106782)
Is this the argument you want to plant your stake in the ground on as absurd? Because the modern debate in the tech community is "should people be allowed to operate motor vehicles at all?"
Re:Questions by raldi on Sunday September 30, 2018 @12:23PM (#18106802)
Even autonomous vehicles will always have nonzero fatality rates. Letting them go 50mph will lead to more human deaths than capping them at 25.
Re:Questions by jsight on Sunday September 30, 2018 @12:25PM (#18106811)
lol, I hear people frame the self driving car discussion that way regularly, but it is just wrong. Noone is going to be making human driven vehicles illegal.

They may be more like classic cars than regular vehicles at some point, though.

Re:Questions by sdenton4 on Sunday September 30, 2018 @12:58PM (#18106986)
Nah, you'll just see the insurance cost spike to the point where driving is a weekend activity for rich weirdos. Give it a generation and it will be as strange and morally suspect as smoking.
Re:Questions by jacquesm on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:18PM (#18107114)
> it will be as strange and morally suspect as smoking.

You could have picked a better example. I see tons of young people smoke and wonder what the hell is wrong with them, whether or not they haven't been paying attention for the last 40 years and then I realize they didn't because they weren't there to begin with. So the tobacco industry can work their nasty charms on them with abandon because there are new potential suckers born every day.

Re:Questions by jsight on Friday October 05, 2018 @10:51AM (#18148594)
Smoking is a weird analogy. I'd expect a better one to be something like "give it a generation and it will be as strange and morally suspect as a horse and buggy".

Or alternatively, maybe as strange as a motorcycle or vintage MG.

Re:Questions by allannienhuis on Sunday September 30, 2018 @12:42PM (#18106894)
I wouldn't be surprised to see an increasing number of (express-type) roads or perhaps dedicated lanes where human drivers were not allowed on though, after self-driving capabilities become the norm. (yes I realise that's an assumption).

I think people underestimate the cultural impact that self-driving vehicles will have - imagine a whole generation or two after self-driving vehicles are generally available - how many people will bother learning to drive? I think it might become more of a job-specific skill than a general 'adult life' skill as it is now in most places.

Re:Questions by raldi on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:13PM (#18107090)
First it will be like knowing how to drive a stick-shift. Then it'll be like owning a sports car. Then it'll be like owning a horse or a boat.
Re:Questions by jsight on Friday October 05, 2018 @10:55AM (#18148624)
I think you are absolutely right about some limited circumstances that make them the only legal option. But the analogy that I keep making is to classic cars. A lot of them don't have the safety features that we expect today. It isn't uncommon for their owners to say things like "I'm only safe on roads that existed in 1960". It is obviously an exaggeration, but the point is that even today there are plenty of cars that are legal to operate but probably wouldn't be anyone's preference on a busy 70 MPH interstate.

At some point, human driven cars become novelties, just like that. There is no reason to ban them, but as you suggest, maybe there will be some HOV-like lanes where they don't really have access. Or even some time constraints (not during rush hour on some key roads, not in lower manhattan, etc).

Re:Questions by sooheon on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:42PM (#18107250)
Your "pure utilitarianism" is a complete straw man.

Killing someone to take their organs to save 5 lives is utilitarianism to only first order effects. We live in a world that does not terminate after one time step, so we have to consider Nth order effects to calculate utility.

For example, the second order effect is other humans' moral judgements. "How horrible, he murdered that man" is a valid moral reaction to have, and this is disutility that must be accounted for in a "pure utilitarian" world view. Third order effects may be the social disorder that results from allowing such ad hoc killings as means to an end, and so on.

The only thing preventing pure utilitarianism from being viable is a lack of compute power, and "rule utilitarianism" is a poor heuristic based approach for philosophers without patience ;)

Re:Questions by ericd on Monday October 01, 2018 @12:04AM (#18109967)
Great comment, I've never had a good way of putting that same thought.
Re:Questions by gameswithgo on Sunday September 30, 2018 @12:46PM (#18106924)
> We should live in a society where the expected human sacrifice of a construction project should be 0.

No, but that should be the ideal which you should strive to move towards, when practicable. But you can't ever actually get there, and shouldn't try infinitely hard either.

Re:Questions by lobotryas on Sunday September 30, 2018 @12:00PM (#18106691)
Yes, but only up to a point. If all the rules and safety checks inflate the cost and timeline of projects exponentially then barely anything would get built.

The question, as always, is: "Where do we draw the line?".

Re:Questions by beaner on Sunday September 30, 2018 @12:12PM (#18106748)
This doesn't seem to be true because things do get built with high safety today.
Re:Questions by johngalt on Sunday September 30, 2018 @12:08PM (#18106729)
It might be more palatable if the benefits accrued to the people assuming the risks.

Reliably the people absorbing the risks capture almost none of the added value.

Re:Questions by posterboy on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:27PM (#18107162)
Yes, it does sound horrible. Not because of the objective, but it is so uninformed and low effort that it is really pain full.

Yes, it's a great idea. Killing one person will allow us to double speed. How exactly I wonder, but this seems like the kind of project where asking questions is strictly forbidden.

Re:Questions by qaq on Sunday September 30, 2018 @03:08PM (#18107775)
This has nothing to do with specifically killing people but has to do with creating regulatory environment were very few entities can complete and comply with regulation. I am not sure anyone can contribute the improved stats to that burdensome regulation easily as it can be just general tech and process improvements.
Re:Questions by imbur on Sunday September 30, 2018 @08:02PM (#18109160)
The premise that people will die if the hospital takes longer to build is false. The same work can be done in another building
Re:Questions by sitepodmatt on Sunday September 30, 2018 @11:27AM (#18106548)
You make a reasonable point, health and safety bullshit can go too far at times, but equally exploitation often goes further - in that the effort to save/pockets costs shadows the good will. Very difficult to quantify