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Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by nailer on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:00AM (#18083991)
I remember looking at Linux's angrier style maybe 15 years ago (I would have been 22) and not being bothered. Someone made a stupid mistake and was getting a bollocking.

Looking at it as a 37 year old last week, I'm surprised a grown man needed to be so aggressive. You can destroy the opinion or the behavior using reason without the aggression, which distracts.

I like that Linux is changing this, though I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes (eg, recent harassment of Ted Tso).

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by steve_taylor on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:07AM (#18084030)
> I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes

That's the CoC's entire purpose. Its author (the same person behind the post-meritocracy manifesto) has said that yes, the CoC is a political document.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by nalllar on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:23AM (#18084180)
Being political isn't a problem. Free Software is political.

mjg59 put this far better than I could:

> A reminder that free software is fundamentally about breaking down barriers preventing people from participating in a social endeavour that grants them more control over their computers, and anyone who argues against that process is not helping the cause of free software

> Some of those barriers are technical (DRM, proprietary software, undocumented hardware) and some are social (unwelcoming communities, abusive maintainers). You don't get to focus on one category and deny the other.

> Alleged free software advocates who defend abusive individuals aren't helping the cause of free software by doing so. Push back.

> "If anything deserves a reward, it is social contribution" - the GNU manifesto by Richard Stallman, 1985.

https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/1042709376442687490

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by AllegedAlec on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:32AM (#18084263)
Where in the definition of FOSS does it say anything about breaking down barriers? Neither the definition of free software nor the definition of open software said anything about that. Unless that guy somehow would provide something that indicates that there's a consensus about his definition of FOSS being the correct one, it's just another person trying to push his own values as the values of an entire group.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by nailer on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:30AM (#18084247)
mjg's quote was concerning ethics and abuse, and does not mention politics.

The concern is that the CoC itself may be used to abuse individuals.

Asides from the Tso example, there was someone else harassed because, outside of a project, they expressed a sexual preference for male dominant/female submissive roles.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by pseudalopex on Thursday September 27, 2018 @12:10PM (#18085813)
Can you explain what you mean about Ted Ts'o? I know there's a story going around that people are calling him a rape apologist because he didn't endorse the CoC. People have called him a rape apologist for years because of arguments he made about rape.

If your other example is Larry Garfield, he's part of a subculture that's controversial even in BDSM circles, and he insisted on bringing elements of that subculture into technical events. Also, the official position seems to be that he didn't actually violate Drupal's code of conduct, but they removed him anyway.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by NikolaNovak on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:10AM (#18084066)
What is a "post-meritocracy manifesto"?

It sounds... opposite from everything I thought we've all been fighting for in the tech community, but I could be wrong? :-S

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by steve_taylor on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:14AM (#18084103)
The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto:

https://postmeritocracy.org/

Author and signatory #1 is the same as the Contributor Covenant, which is the CoC adopted by the Linux Kernel.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by NikolaNovak on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:21AM (#18084728)
Thanks for the link!

Upon my first read, as I frequently find is the case, I either agree or disagree with it, based on unfortunately unspecified context and goals. I feel in general many manifestos, value statements, etc (generally focusing on "how do we accomplish something") would benefit from stating goals ("what are we trying to accomplish").

Once we agree on the goals, we can more objectively (if not perfectly objectively) discuss do these methods and statements move us toward these goals.

In general life, absolutely, I'll agree with most or maybe even all statements. I wouldn't even find them particularly controversial. Communication can be as important as technical skills - sure, I live that every day. We need to understand privilege, and enable everybody - absolutely. True on vast majority of projects in vast majority of contexts I've been part of. Etc

But not all: If (for an extreme example) the context is a small highly proficient working group and goal is an unprecedented technical achievement, majority of these are either unproductive or counterproductive to the goal and the context. If you have three people in the world that understand math to accomplish this project, and your goal is to accomplish this project, you need to involve at least one of the three people in this project - their background, communication skillset, and other aspects notwithstanding.

So stating goals is I find critical in evaluating methods to accomplish those goals.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by nsmith14 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:19AM (#18084141)
You're not wrong. It means diversity quotas are being pushed and excellence is no longer pursued (or at least it's not the first metric).
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by RVuRnvbM2e on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:40AM (#18084339)
No. Its recognition of the fact that "meritocracy" is a satirical myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by inawarminister on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:02AM (#18084542)
Meritocracy underlines the very system of capitalism, though.

It's not ideal, but it is what it is. Capitalism rewards meritocracy in the local maxima.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by UncleMeat on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:27AM (#18085393)
Was capitalism meritocratic in 1920?
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by zellyn on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:15AM (#18084111)
Of course a Code of Conduct is a political document.
Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by nailer on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:21AM (#18084157)
That's worrying, it shouldn't be.

- Ethics are things the overwhelming majority of humans agree on.

- Politics are not.

Edit for 'edent' below due to rate limit:

Were you replying to someone else? My comment mentioned the majority of people agree on ethics. Racial, gender, sexual preference and religious discrimination isn't considered OK in most western countries.

Additionally, you're derailing the discussion by talking about discrimination. The entire reason this thread was started was because there's concern that that the CoC doesn't merely ensure ethics, but (as mentioned in the examples in this thread) has been used to harass people for what most humans would consider ethical behavior.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by zellyn on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:40AM (#18084341)
Anything that seeks to organize a group of humans is fundamentally political. A code of conduct that seeks to govern or guide how people interact is political. The de-facto emergent norms of how people interact _without_ a code of conduct in place are political. The way people organize and structure power and influence without rules is political. The way people organize and structure power and influence with rules is political.

Putting your hands over your eyes and ears and trying to be "non-political" just means you're accepting the de-facto politics that emerge. It probably also means they're working pretty well, for you.

Of course, none of that means that heavy-handed, oppressive politicking used as a weapon to increase power is good. There are at least two opposites of doing something badly: not doing it at all, or doing it well. I'd argue that you can't _not_ do politics, so you should try to do it well.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by edent on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:47AM (#18084402)
You are wrong.

There are a whole raft of people who truly believe that black/gay/trans/religious/whatever people are not worthy of treating as equals. That they shouldn't be granted the same rights as "normal" people and, in extreme cases, that they aren't really human.

A CoC says "These are the ethics of our community." It isn't Politics (which party you vote for), but it is necessarily political.

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by steve_taylor on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:31AM (#18084255)
I would at least say it needn't be. Can we not set out rules for an open source community to follow without enumerating the pet peeves and favourite protected classes in descending order of importance to the document's author?
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Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by nalllar on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:33AM (#18084271)
> The only reason "body size" is mentioned, is because the author is fat. The only reason why "gender identity and expression" is mentioned, is because the author is trans. For most of these cases, a simple "don't discriminate on disability" would suffice.

Is being fat or trans a disability? :/

Re:Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more p... by simias on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:35AM (#18084291)
>I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes

I can sort-of understand this stance if we were talking about FreeBSD for instance (which suffered a similar controversy not long ago) but we're talking about a GPL-licensed codebase here. The GPL is far more political than this CoC we're talking about. You can disagree with it of course, but the mere fact that it's political shouldn't be a problem on its own.

Also I remind the people browsing this thread that a downvote is not a "I disagree" button, I see plenty of "greyed" comments (like the one I'm replying to currently) that IMO do not warrant downvoting.