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Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by mort96 on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:56PM (#18078544)
I think demonizing the guys behind WhatsApp is entirely warranted. They built up a large userbase around promises of privacy and encryption, and then promptly sold those users to fucking Facebook. Whether they were just gullible and didn't do their due diligence, or if they were malignant, doesn't really make a big difference.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by krrrh on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @04:32PM (#18079990)
This gets the timeline a bit wrong. WhatsApp’s user base was largely built up during a period of lax security, including unencrypted message databases on Android SD cards, and easily spoofable addresses. The introduction of end-to-end encryption in conjunction with Open Whisper Systems was not until well after the FB acquisition and plans for it were undoubtedly part of the acquisition terms.

Contemporaneous to this was the rewrite of the privacy policy to allow sharing of metadata between FB and WhatsApp user accounts, which was a bit of a sell out.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by 8ytecoder on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @04:44PM (#18080094)
Even prior to that, WhatsApp did not keep the messages in their servers. Yes, that's not the same as encrypting them. However, they were very clear from the beginning that they won't mine the messages for their ad-value.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by krrrh on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @04:48PM (#18080132)
True, though this decision had the dual-benefit of also reducing the complexity and costs of delivering the service.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by chimeracoder on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @03:49PM (#18079597)
> I think demonizing the guys behind WhatsApp is entirely warranted. They built up a large userbase around promises of privacy and encryption

WhatsApp end-to-end encryption didn't actually begin until after the acquisition to Facebook had already gone through[0].

I am certain that, as of 2012-2013, WhatsApp wasn't even consistently using TLS to encrypt traffic. That's what made it so shocking when they suddenly leapt from some of the worst security practices of all messaging apps on the market to the best[1]. They built a massive userbase long before any efforts were made towards privacy and encryption.

[0] https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2472340,00.asp

[1] Signal didn't exist at the time, and yes, TextSecure existed, but almost nobody was using it compared to WhatsApp or any other chat app on the market today.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by crispyambulance on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @02:12PM (#18078696)
It's not like they secretly sold it Facebook. People knew what Facebook was about by the time of the acquisition and either didn't care, did a wait-and-see or switched to an alternative. Perfectly reasonable behavior by everyone involved. Your standard for "demon" is rather low ! :-)
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by pluma on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @02:35PM (#18078935)
I guess they "trusted" WhatsApp. "Dumb f##ks", right?
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by verganileonardo on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @02:12PM (#18078700)
How many Whatsapp users care about privacy and encryption? How many chose Whatsapp because of that?

I believe most users simply use it because it is the most used messaging app in their country

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by pluma on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @02:46PM (#18079043)
They didn't chose it based on privacy. But they have an expectation of privacy. The post office doesn't read your letters, so why would you expect Facebook to read your messages?

It's difficult to understand for the average person just how much Facebook knows about you and what it can do with that information that isn't in your direct interest. At best they think it's weird how long-lost acquaintances show up as suggested connections, at worst they only notice when Facebook does something directly useful to them.

Sure, you can blame the users, but that's kind of unfair if you consider what kinds of markets WhatsApp already dominated before the acquisition.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by farhanhubble on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @02:50PM (#18079078)
Right. In fact the clean interface, no ads and high reliability and availability were the features that stood out to me.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by bad_user on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @11:04PM (#18081867)
Well I do and I switched after they announced e2e encryption, otherwise I never would have used it.

Why does every thread on Hacker News have to ask this freaking question? It’s obvious that the general public is computer illiterate, Sherlock, just like it is obvious everybody knows someone “good with computers” that can tell them what to use and having lived the sunset if Yahoo Messenger in my country, Facebook should be scared as it happened practically overnight.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by jjeaff on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @02:36PM (#18078940)
And how many paid a single cent for it?
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by 8ytecoder on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @04:46PM (#18080114)
A LOT. Even in developing countries people paid ₹50 (or the equivalent of a $1). WhatsApp changes this model a bit by partnering with carriers. Unfortunately my memory is not clear on whether that was before or after the acquisition.

Edit: Note: WhatsApp publicly claimed that a billion users paying $1 each is enough for them. Also remember, a lot of the technical complexity, infrastructure requirement and data storage requirements went away in their model of being just a conduit. They had no interest in reading, parsing, mining, storing or monetizing the messages. This let them run it with a lean crew.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by dceddia on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @02:47PM (#18079048)
Wasn't there a point where WhatsApp cost $1/year or something like that? Or am I thinking of something else? I don't know how long that lasted though.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by VIPMaster on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @03:18PM (#18079321)
That was technically their business model, but they gave you one year free and also extended your 'subscription' indefinitely if you decided not to pay after that - basically the WinRAR of messaging apps.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by praseodym on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @03:33PM (#18079450)
On iOS the app used to be $0.99 (one-off), which probably made them a couple millions. In 2013 they moved to a subscription model [1] but this was never implemented; I think nobody was ever charged.

[1] https://www.wired.co.uk/article/whatsapp-on-ios-now-free

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by nashashmi on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @03:58PM (#18079673)
I was an idiot who paid for it. twice (-‸ლ)
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by SmellyGeekBoy on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:56AM (#18083371)
I paid for it too. I like to think that "idiots" like us prove that there is demand for a paid ad-and-tracking-free messaging service, so maybe our efforts weren't in vain.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by domador on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @08:35PM (#18081380)
If you live in a wealthy country, you probably "lost" more money writing that comment than what you paid for WhatsApp, even paying twice.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by askmike on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @10:52PM (#18081811)
Completely unrelated from anything. People don't come on HN to make or save money.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by com_kieffer on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @03:28PM (#18079407)
Until the facebook acquisition it cost about $1/year. IIRC it was even profitable.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by mabbo on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @04:45PM (#18080111)
For a few billion dollars, it's pretty easy to see myself doing the same thing.

We're entering a world of a widening disparity between rich and poor. A billion dollars puts you, your children, and their children in the very wealthy side of that line for their entire lives. That's hard to say no to.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by josephjrobison on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @04:57PM (#18080214)
True on the divide but at the same time the world has never been as rich, prosperous, or secure.

https://www.gatesnotes.com/Development/Goalkeepers?WT.mc_id=...

Obviously a very ironic source but the others were more political.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by breck on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @05:35PM (#18080475)
Also, the extreme divide between rich and poor has always existed. I’ve never seen a strong data-supported case that it’s any worse today than 100 or 1000 years ago.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by askmike on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @10:48PM (#18081796)
The whole inequality discussion we've been a few years now all started with this book from Thomas Piketty (a statistical analysis). Maybe start with reading that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Ce...

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by intended on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @07:09PM (#18081029)
It’s slightly ironic to have to state this point on HN; it was once considered the status quo which had to be disrupted.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by ex3xu on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @09:52PM (#18081635)
I agree with this point, as I have a strong distaste for the premise the above poster used: "This is the way things have always been". Implying, why try to change them? Women regularly died in childbirth for thousands of years, but do we hear anyone complaining about knowledge of sterile fields and advances in modern medicine?

If anyone is looking for data-driven cases on the scale and negative consequences of the increasing divide between rich and poor, I've found some good resources in Robert McChesney's The Digital Disconnect, Joseph Stiglitz's The Price of Inequality, and probably most famously Thomas Piketty's 2014 book Capital in the Twenty-First century which Gates himself even recommended, ironically enough. All these books come under criticism for supposed ideological undertones, but even skeptics generally respect the underlying economic data.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by breck on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @10:17PM (#18081692)
Thank you for the sources. I’ve read about the latter but not the others.

I don’t know if inequality can be reduced on a macro level, but I would not bet on it.

Some things can be changed and some can’t. Your example of maternal health is great—we should be focused more on those types of biological things we can change, imo. Who cares if someone is richer than you if you are healthy and happy?

But inequality seems to be something nature loves. The sun gets 99% of the matter in the solar system, for example. Humans decimated all other large predators—examples abound.

Concentrated freedom and decision making power (for which money is just a proxy), might be a necessary evil. I think barring a drastic black swan paradigm shift (world government, computer overlords, or maybe some undiscovered push to an equilibrium driven by globalization...), there’s not much that might change that.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by intended on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @11:32PM (#18081966)
The difference is that wealth concentration is increasing, and that as a society we aim for what sort of reality we want to live in. Society is not a physics experiment so we try and influence it to suit us, instead of being a mirror of the natural world.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by ex3xu on Friday October 05, 2018 @06:13PM (#18152161)
Well sure, the reduction of inequality is not a smart bet to take in the morally impoverished social climate that we live in. The original Pareto principle itself was born out of observations of the natural distribution of wealth among populations, so changes to that distribution will require active effort and hard work to create a sustainable economic structure. I'm not saying people don't have good reason to be cynical about improvements in the Gini coefficient across the world.

But you must recognize that human society is simply the summation of many individual choices, and there is a big difference between saying something is unlikely to happen, and something cannot happen. Pragmatism and cowardly cynicism are two different positions with dramatically different possible outcomes. Instead of accepting Keynes over Polanyi as a foregone conclusion, try looking at the individual choices that were made to get us to this position. Repealing Glass-Steagall in the '90s was a choice. Deregulation in the '80s was a choice. 100 million Americans eligible to register choosing not to vote out politicians who make these decisions are 100 million choices. There may be systemic reasons for why those choices were made, but I am simply right now trying to get you to see that these outcomes are not foregone conclusions.

Your justifying logic for holding your beliefs is certainly not rigorous -- you can just as easily find examples of nature favoring equilibrium and balance in every conceivable force diagram or cell membrane as you can of the existence of inequality. If you are looking for a nature metaphor, why not try a chemical reaction? In an inert environment, oxygen molecules will not spontaneously transform into carbon dioxide, even though carbon dioxide is a more stable chemical state. But once the necessary conditions exist -- the presence of sufficient carbon and enough available activation energy to perform the reaction -- a single spark can cause a chain reaction to convert every single oxygen molecule present into carbon dioxide molecule. No matter if previously, every oxygen molecule was insisting, "But this is the way things have always been for us! Some things can be changed, and some things can't."

We have not yet reached the necessary conditions for our society to reach a more stable state, so you are not wrong in saying that it seems unlikely that the reduction in inequality can occur without certain tipping points being reached. But it is folly to conclude "...there's not much that might change that" without educating yourself on the missing conditions and realizing that it is possible to slowly work towards achieving those conditions or empower others who are taking steps to achieve those conditions. Conditions like political will, corporate regulations and safeguards against regulatory capture, fighting disinformation campaigns, and educating people on the harms of inequality, done very well by thinkers like Stiglitz, Varoufakis, McChesney, Chibber, Polanyi, Bernie Sanders, John Kay, Tim Wu, and many others who have considered the effects and are working on solutions. So that when that single spark comes along -- a great leader who can move the masses to rally behind a vision of a better world -- hopefully we will have done enough to move in the correct direction. We are closer than we think probably, if you look at how close the elections of Gore and Sanders were, for example.

But, I should say in the end I am encouraged by anyone who is willing to read and educate themselves on the matter and engage with differing viewpoints. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I am optimistic for the future, but I will do whatever is in my power to create a fighting chance for those who have not yet given up in the face of difficult odds.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by intended on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @07:07PM (#18081017)
Globally the pie has improved, there is traction in places where a penny was a healthy amount.

But overall, the gains of technology are being concentrated in a few hands.

The economists say that wealth is primarily created by tech change, everything else is just a functioning economy working as it would.

It seems that the low base effect makes every thing better off if you were terribly off. But if you were middle income you are worse off.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by winningcontinue on Thursday September 27, 2018 @01:39AM (#18082296)
interesting idea that wealth is primarily created by tech innovation. Got a good source of reading on this? How would they address a few people concentrating wealth onto themselves?
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by charmides on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @04:57PM (#18080222)
Relatable or not, it is still a wrong thing to do and we should strive to be better people during the short time that we are alive.