News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by abalone on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @10:59AM (#18076611)
Come. On. You don’t get to that kind of valuation with a basically free product without ad targeting. An accelerated vesting clause is not an assurance. If they wanted assurances they could have made it a condition of the deal, ok? They didn’t. Accelerated vesting just means they were telegraphing that they wanted to leave before the shit hit the fan.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by ozgune on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @11:48AM (#18077143)
Pre-Facebook, WhatsApp's monetization strategy has been to charge users a nominal fee for usage ($1/year). And $1/yr with 1B users doesn't justify the price tag for Facebook. So Facebook wanted to introduce advertising.

PS: I'd be happy to pay them $1/month because a significant part of my communication happens over WhatsApp. The challenge is $1/month is probably too pricey for most of their user base.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by aylmao on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:17PM (#18078155)
FWIW this is from the perspective of and American consumer (I assume, from your comment below where you mention AT&T).

Most WhatsApp users aren't American, and in a lot of places $1 is a more significant price tag. That aside though, some places don't have the infrastructure or trust to even allow any sort of online payment to happen: a lot of people in India don't have credit cards, and being from Mexico myself, I know a lot of people who do don't trust online transactions enough to pay with it online.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by toomuchtodo on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:30PM (#18078274)
Charge me two dollars as a first world American, and give someone else the service for free. Infrastructure can be expensive, but not that expensive. Let's Encrypt, OpenStreetMap [1], and Wikipedia run on donations, and these are core internet properties.

If you think you need tens of millions of dollars annually to run a chat client at scale, no.

[1] https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/9867/what-is-annual... (OpenStreetMap infrastructure costs less than $100k/year)

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by earenndil on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:33PM (#18078297)
Let's encrypt and wikipedia are not-for-profit. If they charge americans $2/month and eastasians $0, then people will be outraged, and they'll find a way to get it for free anyway.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by toomuchtodo on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:34PM (#18078311)
I would ask for proof people would be outraged. Google and Facebook have used their overwhelming first world profits to fund internet ventures in the third world, and no one is outraged over the actions except for the blatant colonialism those actions represent.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by earenndil on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @09:03PM (#18081478)
They have never offered the same service to an identical identity type (e.g. person/government/corporation/school are all different), but charging for one and not the other.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by chipotle_coyote on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:51PM (#18078501)
This is really a reply to "toomuchtodo," but I don't have a reply link under their post. They wrote:

> I would ask for proof people would be outraged. Google and Facebook have used their overwhelming first world profits to fund internet ventures in the third world, and no one is outraged over the actions except for the blatant colonialism the actions represent.

Well, obviously you can't prove a hypothetical, but the "outrage" suggested here isn't about for-profit companies funding charities. It's about being charged even minimal amounts for services. Google and Facebook do not charge users for their core services, so they are not good comparison points.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by toomuchtodo on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:56PM (#18078550)
Odd that you couldn't reply to me, but HN is a strange beast.

Users were paying for Whatsapp [1]. I believe that data point illustrates that users would pay $1/year for a chat service, but this is just an opinion until someone decides to stand up a new service and charges for it.

[1] The evolution of WhatsApp - in rumours and revenues WhatsApp had dabbled with the subscription revenue model in 2014, which amounted to charging an annual $0.99 membership fee, and earned above $1 billion in the first nine months of instating this fee. But following their $19-billion acquisition by Facebook, they came to revoke these charges, and WhatsApp was a free ride for its one-billion-strong and counting user base again."

https://yourstory.com/2017/03/how-whatsapp-makes-money/

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by abalone on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @03:02PM (#18079194)
> The challenge is $1/month is probably too pricey for most of their user base.

The only reason WhatsApp exists is that international carriers were charging higher fees for text messaging while offering lower data rates, creating an arbitrage opportunity. WhatsApp never took off in the U.S. because U.S. carriers were ahead of the curve in shifting to free texting (thanks to the iPhone popularizing unlimited consumer data plans). So yes, this puts a hard ceiling on what WhatsApp could charge.

And that makes them feigning they thought they could justify a $19B valuation without increasing monetization all the more ridiculous. Of course they knew what would happen. That's why the deal was "if you monetize we vest all our stock and leave and cry out loud all the way to the bank," not "you can't monetize."

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by ISL on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:07PM (#18078018)
Facebook didn't want to die. Large and growing networks are a threat to FB. Buying up Instagram and WhatsApp was probably less expensive than building competitors and out-competing the upstarts.

The prospect of ad revenue is a bonus.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by rokhayakebe on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @02:48PM (#18079065)
The challenge is $1/month is probably too pricey for most of their user base.

I was born and raised in a third world country and 99% of my family and friends still live there. Our GDP per capita is around $1,000 (yearly figure). I know people with children who make no more than $150 per month and cannot afford their own apartment. I know people who make even less. I know people who live in villages and probably have a monthly budget of no more than $80-$100.

Yet I have very rarely met people who somehow aren't spending at least $5 per month on their phone bill (buying minutes).

In fact I was very surprised to find that not only nearly everyone has a mobile phone, BUT phone service was more expensive than they are in the US. For example one hour at an internet cafe will set you back 50 cents. Yet everyone has a mobile phone, about half have a smartphone (granted a cheaper version of Android) and people buy internet connection left and right. In America, you walk into any coffee shop, get a free water, a free internet connection and a Thank You.

I say this to say, that WhatsApp could charge $2 per month and most people will happily pay it.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by krrrh on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @04:40PM (#18080064)
An important point to add to these observations is that WhatsApp made massive inroads with carriers in developing countries to zero-rate their services (unlimited WhatsApp messages as part of a data plan). This is the underreported aspect of the FB acquisition as these arrangements were immediately parlayed into zero-rating for WhatsApp and Facebook. WhatsApp was so far ahead of Facebook in becoming established in these markets that it posed a real threat. And as you said, $1-24 per year paid to WhatsApp would be only a fraction of what even the poorest mobile phone users pay for their plans.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by abalone on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @03:11PM (#18079264)
This is an invalid comparison. WhatsApp is an OTT messaging service. You're comparing it to carrier internet and voice service.

It would be more valid to compare it to carrier text messaging fees, which was the arbitrage opportunity they exploited. But that opportunity is mostly gone now that everyone has smartphones. If WhatsApp charged $2/month they would face the same challenge from upstart apps that carriers faced from WhatsApp.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by rchaud on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:34PM (#18078310)
The $1/yr thing was BS. The app never actually took you to a payment screen; I think it was "free for 1 year, $1/yr afterwards". The only time I have ever paid for Whatsapp was in the Blackberry App Store back in 2009, when it cost $3.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by ismail on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:44PM (#18078429)
I paid $1 on the App Store
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by sp527 on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @12:15PM (#18077452)
If you think that even the friction alone of charging $1/yr isn't enough to shove the vast majority of users off the app, you haven't been paying attention to consumer expectations.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by ozgune on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @12:58PM (#18077940)
I agree that $1/yr would shove off majority of users off the app. That said, I think WhatsApp could get to revenues of $1-3B per year because of the following:

* I pay $60/mo for my AT&T line. I do the majority of my communication over WhatsApp. In that sense, WhatsApp adds more value to my life than AT&T. There are a group of users who'd be willing to pay more for that value.

* For most users, WhatsApp is an integral part of how they communicate with friends, family, doctors, coworkers, etc. As a consumer, it isn't just an "app" but an integral part of their communication flow.

* WhatsApp is respected by international telcos. I know at least for the telcos in my home country that they'd be happy to charge for WhatsApp subscription as part of their packages.

I think the primary problem was that even if WhatsApp could monetize $1-3/yr per user on average, it still wouldn't have met FB's revenue expectations.

Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by underwater on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @06:29PM (#18080796)
WhatsApp relies on network effects to be successful. If you get less than 100% of users continuing to pay and use the product then the utility goes down; the paid product is actually worse than the free version.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by sp527 on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @04:32PM (#18079995)
I honestly believe the friction of paying any non-zero amount at all for a messenger app is more than what 80%+ of users would be willing to bear psychologically. They would almost certainly just migrate to a different app. That's also where WhatsApp's group emphasis becomes a huge drawback - groups would tend to migrate together, making it easier and quicker for the whole network to unravel.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by s73v3r_ on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @12:56PM (#18077909)
But that's what WhatsApp was doing before.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by sp527 on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:41PM (#18078379)
No they were not. This is a complete falsehood. They sold the company well before they could roll out their monetization plan widely enough for it to impact user retention. They were also much smaller at the time.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by stale2002 on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:25PM (#18078225)
Well, but WhatsApp proved you what, because that's exactly what they were doing for a while.
Re:WhatsApp Cofounder Brian Acton on Why He Left $850M Behind by vasilipupkin on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:44PM (#18078423)
agree. This is just such complete bullshit. If you don't agree with someone's ethics or business practices, don't take 22 billion dollars from them. If you do take 22 billion, say thank you and stop acting like a 10 year old.