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Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by charmides on Monday September 24, 2018 @03:43AM (#18055745)
I think paid email services are a great idea, but $50 a year and 2 GB of storage for Fastmail seems expensive to me. Why not something closer to five or ten bucks a year? Can someone explain to me why this type of pricing makes sense?
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by onion2k on Monday September 24, 2018 @03:54AM (#18055793)
Pricing 101: Price has nothing to do with the cost of providing the service, and everything to do with the value the customer puts on what they're buying.

The value you put on email is $10/year, so Fastmail doesn't represent good value. Other people obviously think its worth more. Fastmail are providing their service to those people.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by charmides on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:06AM (#18055841)
I need to respectfully disagree with you here. In a free market, pricing does have something to do with the cost of providing a service because companies that overcharge would quickly lose market share to competitors, especially in a wildly competitive space like email.

Also, ten bucks a year has nothing to do with how much I'd personally be willing to pay for email. It is just my estimation of the amount you could charge people while still keeping healthy profit margins in this industry, however I don't have much domain knowledge regarding email and that figure could be very wrong. I'd love to hear from an expert.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by onion2k on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:24AM (#18055922)
...companies that overcharge would quickly lose market share to competitors

This is only true for companies offering equivalent products, and that is never the case in tech because there are so many intangible factors.

In this case, one of Fastmail's intangible benefits is that they're not Google. Maybe Fastmail's customers think that's worth $50 ... but it has zero impact on Fastmail's costs.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by ggm on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:32AM (#18055947)
In a free market

Bzzt. Notice how everyone recommended fastmail and nobody else? It's not a highly competitive free market. It's "hi, can anyone recommend a MacBook cheaper than the one apple make" time.

Free markets reductionism not useful with no serious competitive pressure

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by SmellyGeekBoy on Monday September 24, 2018 @06:08AM (#18056390)
Email seems like more of a free market than most things considering the incredibly low barrier to entry. You can even host your own email server, you can't reasonably do that with a lot of the software that you use every day.

Just because a particular provider is good and cheap and has a lot of satisfied customers doesn't make it any less of a free market.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by ggm on Monday September 24, 2018 @06:40AM (#18056530)
It just feels like a truism. Absent a formal regulation oversight any market is free in these terms. Were not comparing Japanese gold plated apples and trader Joe floor dropping oranges with mould on, were looking for competition in the sense BMW competes with Mercedes and Lexus. Google is giving away some thing of huge value, which is highly reliable spam free email. They "charge" your privacy which is beyond price. If you seek equivalent functionality the software cost alone for the one I regard as comparable is 350 dollars which as a purchase amortised out is $10 a month over three years but I have to spend another $10 a month to host it, and I still have a single point of failure. So price wise fastmail may be enormously good value or expensive depending how you feel: there are not a heap of competent competitive alternates. Maybe five? Sure, that's a competitive market in Herfindahl Hirschman Index maybe? But in practice it's not far off a duopoly. Google or o365, fastmail or proton. It's a pair of competing entities not one market.
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by pbhjpbhj on Monday September 24, 2018 @10:06AM (#18057748)
>You can even host your own email server //

As long as you don't want deliverability to Gmail or Outlook addresses. Though you can pay for Outlook deliverability it seems. They're very pinickety about allowing mail through from self-hosted or even low-traffic shared hosting IME [albeit limited].

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by gsich on Monday September 24, 2018 @12:38PM (#18059108)
You can self host and deliver to those addresses. Without troubles.
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by pbhjpbhj on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:21PM (#18061065)
I've had no end of trouble. I'm not the only one according to reports from others online.
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by gsich on Monday September 24, 2018 @05:18PM (#18061545)
Unused IP, set PTR (seems important) and MX, SPF and DKIM, although I'm not sure how relevant the last one was. I can imagine that Gmail will block you if you try to send mail from an IP that was previusly used to spam.
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by pbhjpbhj on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @09:45AM (#18066241)
Couldn't really work out why Gmail wanted to block me, yes obvs using SPF/DKIM/etc. - long trusted domain (15y), never any spam, whitelisted on client side. MS blocked it according to their third-party system because it was associated with another IP address [ie other IP was once used by same ISP] that had once had spam on it (wasn't currently blacklisted in any SBL).

There's no way to check before you build out the system, so unless you have an easy way to change IP and ISP then I'd be cautious.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by gsich on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @07:32AM (#18074809)
I was not thinking about self hosting at home.
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by charmides on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:42AM (#18055985)
Email is a highly competitive market with a low barrier to entry and thousands of companies offering similar services. It is nothing like hardware, so your comparison is bizarre.

By the way, I was asking for the point of view of an expert. If you are not an expert on email services, then I have no interest in hearing you speak condescendingly to me.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by michaelt on Monday September 24, 2018 @06:18AM (#18056428)
So, there are two separate-but-related products here.

The first is e-mail.

The second is an extremely hard-to-validate promise of future work, such that (a) cutting-edge security and privacy protections are maintained; (b) properly designed regular backups and redundant infrastructure ensure your e-mails won't be lost; (c) staff ethics, training and oversight will protect against insider threats; (d) protection against spam and phishing will be effective - but will not block legitimate e-mails; (e) e-mails you send will get delivered and not marked as spam or silently discarded, even when sending to the likes of gmail; (f) no e-mails sent to you will be silently discarded or otherwise lost; (g) if issues do arise, that they will respond promptly and competently; and (h) as webmail technology advances and market conditions change, they will keep up-to-date and stay in business.

There's no way for me to validate most of these things. Instead, we rely on a supplier's "reputation" - an amalgamation of their past performance, their visibility and their marketing.

There are many e-mail providers. There aren't many e-mail providers widely known as reputable.

In other words, Fastmail doesn't face much price competition within the market of "e-mail services recommended by users of Hacker News" even if they do within the market of e-mail services generically.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by ggm on Monday September 24, 2018 @06:11AM (#18056398)
Once you add the words like Gmail or replace Gmail or instead of Gmail then no, it's not thousands of companies offering similar services. Running a service in Port 457 is the least of the offerings. It has to have spam detection as good as Postini, sieve, IMAP, utf-8 support, tls certificate management, a web portal, DNS and related domain management.

The killer is five nines availability. That's pricey.

I used to run mailsystems and maintain mailsystems code in the 1980s. I don't do it now because it has too many moving parts. I got a grandfathered domain into hosted by Google and it's worth a damn sight more than the apparent market force bottom price.

Hardware or software or service your competitors have to be comparable or at least bearable to apply price pressure. I do not judge fastmail as price competitive because they (like apple) are competing in quality. Not price.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by charmides on Monday September 24, 2018 @01:02PM (#18059320)
Thank you for the insight.
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by pmorici on Monday September 24, 2018 @05:50AM (#18056297)
The Fastmail pricing tiers are $3, $5, and $9 per month which is $36, $60, and $108 per year respectively. If you look at their primary competition their prices are on par or slightly better. Here is a sampling...

Google G Suite: $5, $10, and $25 per month per user.

Microsoft: $4, $8, or $12.50 per month per user.

ZOHO: $3, $7 per month per user billed yearly.

[0] https://gsuite.google.com/pricing.html

[1] https://products.office.com/en-us/exchange/compare-microsoft...

[2] https://www.zoho.com/workplace/pricing.html?src=zmail

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by conatus on Monday September 24, 2018 @07:10AM (#18056666)
While they are on par for email, with Fastmail being superior in certain ways, you do get a deal more value from the Google G Suite as you get a lot more besides email incorporated in the price, i.e, cloud drive, the applications themselves etc.

Thinking though this for a project I'm working on with a tight budget I concluded for money related reasons I'd probably have to go with Google even though I'd prefer not to.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by pmorici on Monday September 24, 2018 @07:21AM (#18056724)
FastMail is more than just email. They include a drive like feature with the ability to make a basic website.

I use G Suite for my side business and while it seems like a great deal because you get all these other apps, in practice, I have never used them, not once.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by conatus on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:32AM (#18064751)
Oh really. Thanks for this. Will check it out.

We are heavy users of Google Sheets and Docs already so I know these will be used immediately.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by bensonn on Monday September 24, 2018 @07:58AM (#18056909)
ZOHO also offers the free plan.

FREE PLAN Up to five users. 5GB/User, 25MB attachment limit. Web access only. Email hosting for single domain.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by TsomArp on Monday September 24, 2018 @07:43AM (#18056831)
Office365 family costs 10 per month for 5 users, with office desktop and web, with 1TB of space per user, and 60 minutes of skype per user...
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by vidanay on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:20PM (#18061062)
And unfortunately, they don't offer custom domain support.
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by godelski on Monday September 24, 2018 @01:50PM (#18059748)
All the competition shows substantially more storage. Plus they offer other services.

So no, their pricing is not on par.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by sergiosgc on Monday September 24, 2018 @10:21AM (#18057870)
Five or ten bucks a year is impossible to attain. The monthly cost of a hosted GB is about a cent. At 25GB, in a service with fast search and, I imagine, regular snapshots and backups, you'll be using up to 200% overhead. Assume that most accounts are not at 100% usage and, in the spirit of a Fermi estimate, set a typical usage of 50GB. You get to an yearly cost of $6.

At $6 cost of hardware per account, now you have to factor in other costs and your profit margin. Support alone will bring you above $10. Marketing will also bring you above $10 on its own. At a decent scale, you can keep the marginal cost of engineering low (as it does not scale linearly), but on a mid-sized operation expect it to bring you above $10 on its own.

All in all, $50/year is high but not stratospheric.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by i_made_a_booboo on Monday September 24, 2018 @03:55AM (#18055799)
Because if you have 10,000 customers paying $50 that's much nicer than having 100,000 customers paying you $5.
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by SmellyGeekBoy on Monday September 24, 2018 @06:09AM (#18056395)
Certainly in the case of email where the cost of providing the service has pretty much a linear relationship with the number of users.
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by wasd884 on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:46AM (#18056009)
It does seem expensive when you've been exposed to free (or heavily discounted) prices your whole life. This is because the others still charge this much, except the difference in revenue is made up by selling your data and pushing adverts (rather than charging you extra). Suddenly the extra $30-$40 per year doesn't seem so expensive any more.
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by charmides on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:50AM (#18056027)
I guess that selling user data and advertisements is worth more per user than I realized.
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by Johnny555 on Monday September 24, 2018 @12:00PM (#18058787)
Fastmail is $30/year for 2GB, $50/year for 25GB, and $90/year for 100GB of storage.

https://www.fastmail.com/pricing/

If you have your own domain, you need to use the $50 or $90 plans.

Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by leokennis on Monday September 24, 2018 @01:48PM (#18059719)
I have to say: I like to be charged as much as FastMail charges. It gives me some sense that they will not be out of business or quit in a year or two. I like FastMail to still exist in 50 years.
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by mping on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:18AM (#18055896)
$50 gets you 25Gb according to their pricing page.
Re:Ask HN: Best alternative to Gmail? by miffe on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:28AM (#18055939)
$50/y gets you 25 GB of storage.