News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by pjc50 on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:02PM (#18018629)
This is the kind of thing that people mean by "disaster capitalism". PR is wrecked and desperate for money, so it resorts to tax competition - but only for wealthy foreigners, not its own residents. This drives up local inequality while also taking away from the mainland's tax base. And in the end it doesn't quite manage to solve the problems for the rest of PR.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by topmonk on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @02:59AM (#18022310)
> This drives up local inequality

Why is this a bad thing? Last time I checked, most places love patronage from tourists (who don't pay income taxes either), and these “residents” are almost like permanent tourists.

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by Atlantium on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @06:22AM (#18023182)
It's tolerated. I'm from another island tax haven and I can tell you that it's part of our culture to act welcoming and happy to see you. It's an act; anyone in any service industry can confirm this. People do this because their choices otherwise are limited.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by topmonk on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @07:46PM (#18028558)
I'm aware of this, and that's why I don't live in any of the traditional third-world "paradises". The fakeness and the bitterness of the locals is too much for me.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by syn0byte on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @10:09AM (#18024249)
"Sorry 5 'middle class' Puerto Rican families that lost your homes. A rich guy wanted a nice new big second vacation home. So here is a half sized condo at twice the price."

Why indeed?

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by topmonk on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @07:48PM (#18028570)
For every rich person how many jobs are created to support them? Having cheap rent isn't going to help people if there is no work for them to do.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by chimeracoder on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:23PM (#18018779)
> And in the end it doesn't quite manage to solve the problems for the rest of PR.

As long as the Jones Act is still in place, there is no tax policy Puerto Rico could implement that would solve its economic problems in the long-term.

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by throwaway5752 on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:53PM (#18019504)
That is like 99th on a list of 100 of PR's problems. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/18/broken-bonds-wall-streets-ro..., poor access to capital/need for capital after Maria, and an apathetic (if not antagonistic) administration are absolutely worse right now.

How much would you really estimate is wasted above what would be paid for non-US flagged ships? How would a race to the bottom in terms of flag-of-convenience destinations be detrimental to the long term interests of the US shipping/shipbuilding industries? Would repealing it have any security impacts? Who would benefit most from it.

I don't expect you to answer those, but they are all complicated questions and worthy of better discussion than this.

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by chimeracoder on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @06:00PM (#18019569)
> That is like 99th on a list of 100 of PR's problems

Look, I never said that the Jones Act was Puerto Rico's only problem. I said it's a major problem, and that it alone is significant enough to hamper Puerto Rico's economy indefinitely.

As a separate note, it's weird to frame it (as you do) as the aftermath of Maria and the federal government's apathy being worse, when in reality the two are heavily linked. The Jones Act severely hindered the recovery efforts from Maria. (Every other hurricane since Katrina has prompted a temporary waiver from the Jones Act in order to aid relief - including Harvey, which happened just before Maria).

Yes, keeping the residents of Puerto Rico in the dark for a year and without reliable access to shelter and clean water is obviously an immediate problem. I'm saying that even if the lights were turned back on overnight, that still won't fix the long-term problems either.

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by throwaway5752 on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @10:46PM (#18021280)
They waived the Jones Act after Maria, albeit briefly.

I think PR's debt problems are an order of magnitude worse than the excessive cost of shipping. They need to be a full US state, and they need federal aid to fix their balance sheet (beyond PROMESA). I think a Jones Act subsidy would be a reasonable policy to preserve a US shipbuilding industrial base while not doing so on AK, HI, PR, et al's dime.

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by Vivtek on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @06:14PM (#18019680)
More realistically, it's probably third or fourth on a list of our 100 top problems. Absolutely top ten.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by throwaway5752 on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @10:54PM (#18021311)
Ok, like I replied to the sibling comment, the debt crisis (admittedly from a distance) feels like such an overwhelming #1 that the rest are dwarfed. I think PR's situation is entirely unjust, and they deserve full statehood (or independence, based on a referendum).
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:00PM (#18019087)
Could you explain exactly what about the Jones Act causes the problem, and how it does so? A casual glance failed to enlighten me.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by chimeracoder on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:22PM (#18019267)
> Could you explain exactly what about the Jones Act causes the problem, and how it does so? A casual glance failed to enlighten me.

The Jones Act requires Puerto Rico to use only a small number of US merchants for shipping to and from the mainland. Because those few merchants have an oligopoly, they're much more expensive than any of the alternatives. This raises the cost of everything that's not produced on the island itself, which directly or indirectly inflates all prices on the island. As a result, the island's exports become prohibitively expensive as well, which means that they can't really afford to buy much, but they also can't produce anything that's cheap enough for other places to want to purchase them.

While the Jones Act technically applies to all states, Puerto Rico and Hawaii are uniquely affected by it due to their inability to ship anything by ground transit, since they're islands. (Hawaii also suffers due to the act, though they have representation in Congress that has enabled them to secure waivers at times and other exemptions to mitigate the impact. Puerto Rico does not.). Air shipments are not an option - air is always orders of magnitude more expensive than either ground or sea - shipping over water is always the cheapest.

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by dv_dt on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @08:11PM (#18020541)
It seems like the simplest thing to do would be to add an over-water maximum onto the Jones act that would essentially allow PR and HI an exception.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by chimeracoder on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @08:51PM (#18020748)
> t seems like the simplest thing to do would be to add an over-water maximum onto the Jones act that would essentially allow PR and HI an exception.

Given how heavily certain group lobbied to prevent the government from issuing just a temporary waiver after Hurricane Maria, I wouldn't bet on this happening anytime soon.

Democrats support the Jones Act because their core constituents do. Republicans have a complicated history with lobbying for Puerto Rican issues. So neither party has an incentive to fix it, and neither party sees Puerto Evans as constituents.

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by dv_dt on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @12:36AM (#18021704)
> Democrats support the Jones Act because their core constituents do.

I bet 99% of their constituents don't even know what the Jones act is or would be perfectly willing to change it.

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by chimeracoder on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @01:04AM (#18021808)
> I bet 99% of their constituents don't even know what the Jones act is or would be perfectly willing to change it.

That's a bold claim. On what are you basing the assumption that many or most Democrats would be willing to change the Jones Act, if they knew what it was?

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by dv_dt on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @02:08PM (#18026325)
No more bold than their constituents support it. I suspect that neither of us has viscerally satisfactory direct evidence for their respective positions.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by chimeracoder on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @03:09PM (#18026860)
> No more bold than their constituents support it. I suspect that neither of us has viscerally satisfactory direct evidence for their respective positions.

It's not particularly bold to assume that convincing Democratic voters to repeal an obscure law that the AFL-CIO vehemently supports is an uphill battle.

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by dv_dt on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @04:42PM (#18027525)
Leadership in many old-line unions and democratic groups is been in sharp contrast with the wants and needs of constituent representation. The most obvious example of this is the recent teachers strikes which were 'wildcat' in that they occurred without formal union leadership blessing.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by chimeracoder on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @04:56PM (#18027638)
> Leadership in many old-line unions and democratic groups is been in sharp contrast with the wants and needs of constituent representation. The most obvious example of this is the recent teachers strikes which were 'wildcat' in that they occurred without formal union leadership blessing.

There is literally zero evidence that members of AFL-CIO unions oppose the AFL-CIO's persistent lobbying in favor of the Jones Act. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, namely (1) the fact that it serves their own interests, and (2) the fact that there has been zero opposition to it over the last century that the AFL-CIO has supported it (in contrast to the example you site).

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by skybrian on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:05PM (#18019126)
As I understand it, prices are higher on U.S. islands due to not being able to ship cheaply from the mainland. (They'd be higher anyway, but this doesn't help.)
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by Vivtek on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @06:15PM (#18019696)
Ah. Yes. You're right. There's no tax policy Puerto Rico could implement, because tax policy is a weak tool to start with.

Now I see how I mistook the argument you were making.

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by hkmurakami on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:13PM (#18018710)
In theory once you attract a big enough cluster of “tax hackers”, the government can then modestly increase taxes on these folks and that can be a high leverage thing once you’ve attracted a large revenue base.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by Jtsummers on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:17PM (#18018741)
In theory...

But many of these people have sufficient mobility that you have to remain under the tax level of your competition. Most of them have no actual tie to Puerto Rico and would leave in a heartbeat if they found a better deal.

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by mikeyouse on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:02PM (#18019095)
Also, it turns out that these super high net worth individuals and entities have a lot of political sway. Once you start talking about raising their costs (taxes), they will put a ton of resources into making sure you are no longer in position to do so.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by darawk on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @04:05AM (#18022623)
> But many of these people have sufficient mobility that you have to remain under the tax level of your competition.

Not really. Puerto Rico has no real competition. It's the only place you can live inside of the US without paying federal income tax. If Puerto Rico were to raise its local tax, to say, 10%, it would still be the lowest overall tax jurisdiction in the US by a mile.

Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by kenmicklas on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:50PM (#18018998)
Modern capitalists are way too efficient at moving capital via financialization for that to work in practice.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by Timmah on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @06:03PM (#18019594)
Ah, so exploitation of the middle class is okay because it's only temporary. Gotcha.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by Nasrudith on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:48PM (#18019475)
It seems like a "repairative spite" game theory move for funding. Cause more tax loss to the mainland when neglected to solve the problem one way or another.
Re:How Puerto Rico Became a Tax Haven for the Super Rich by Vivtek on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @06:11PM (#18019662)
Actually, in addition to the rich-person tax scheme, there's also a pretty reasonable tax-abatement scheme for any person, resident or not, who starts a PR-based business employing five people or more in one of a number of target industries, including online services and recycling.

So that one's well-considered, I think.