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Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 16, 2018 @07:06PM (#18001782)
That's actually the very definition of abuse.

I am much more comfortable with people being publicly blunt. At least there is no gaslighting involved where the victim wonders if they imagined it because everyone keeps telling them "he would never do that" or whatever.

If you are on excellent terms with someone and they trust you, etc, it can work to be more blunt in private. But most people doing that are just hiding their own bad behavior and that's it. Which makes it a form of corruption.

Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by dragonsky67 on Sunday September 16, 2018 @08:53PM (#18002300)
I think it needs to be acknowledged that many people don't get subtle feedback. If you give me subtle feedback, either positive or negative, chances are I will miss it all together. I need feedback that is clear and obvious, what others could categorises as being blunt or abusive otherwise I will walk away scratching my head wondering if I've done well or otherwise.

Reminds me of advise that was given to my Wife by a friend when I got married.

Subtle hints don't work, Hints don't work, if you have something you don't like that he is doing, make sure you are bloody obvious when you talk to him about it.

Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 16, 2018 @09:02PM (#18002346)
See, this is the piece that makes me assess this as an abusive thing to do:

The key, I find, is to be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones.

I have two special needs sons. I'm a former military wife. I tend to err on the side of being super, duper blunt and, no, my kids don't get "hints." But that doesn't mean I have to be ugly about it most of the time either.

Real life example:

When they were little, I would say "The trash is overflowing and needs to go out." My oldest would look over his shoulder, see that this statement was factually true, acknowledge the veracity of it and continue playing his video game. The fact that my statement was intended to get him to take the trash out did not quite click.

There is nothing whatsoever abusive about changing that statement to "Son, you need to stop what you are doing right now and take the trash out." That's just clear communication.

I am well aware that some people think saying something like that is somehow emotionally abusive or some nonsense. I have spent plenty of time on parenting lists where people were horrified that I would tell my sons something directly instead of dropping hints or some nonsense.

I'm quite fond of the movie quote "I'm too truthful to be good." I'm also very fond of a rubric I learned long ago that "Those who believe in telling the brutal truth value brutality more than truth."

I can be very, very, very blunt. I try to always be kind, to the best of my ability. I see no contradiction between the two.

Learning to tailor your communication style to the needs of individuals on your team is just good management and doesn't require any meanness whatsoever. In fact, it's a kindness.

Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by blihp on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:37AM (#18004129)
I take brutal in this context to mean honesty, not cruelty. To me, 'very, very, very blunt' and 'extremely direct and brutal' mean the same thing.
Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by DoreenMichele on Monday September 17, 2018 @05:11AM (#18004277)
I'm aware there are people who feel that way. I think the difference is that, where applicable, I will also deal with the emotional piece and make sure they understand I mean X, but not Y in cases where bluntly stating X is typically presumed to also mean Y where X is something factual and Y is something ugly and judgemental.

My oldest son wasn't planned. I spent a lot of time thinking on how to talk to him about that and realized that most people equate unplanned with unwanted. So I figured out how to make it clear that he was unplanned while making it equally clear he was absolutely wanted and loved. It's never been an issue.

Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by wpietri on Sunday September 16, 2018 @10:43PM (#18002775)
Sure. But clear is different than brutal. If you say the truth and people get too mad to listen, you might as well not have spoken at all.
Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by threatofrain on Sunday September 16, 2018 @07:19PM (#18001832)
Perhaps you might prefer open debate or critique, but I think most people would prefer that negative speech not occur in public. I think even politely negotiated debates can end up looking embarrassing if other people who are watching can form a justifiably negative narrative.

When people are having a discussion in a visible business setting, to some degree, the precise words being spoken by either party become less relevant than the kinds of narratives people can form about either of you. It becomes a negotiation of PR rather than a discussion of ideas.

Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 16, 2018 @07:21PM (#18001846)
Let me put this another way:

Abusive people are always, without fail, at their ugliest when there are no witnesses and they have plausible deniability.

I'm aware that dressing someone down in public has its own problems.

Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by Dylan16807 on Sunday September 16, 2018 @11:32PM (#18002989)
You're describing a situation where they are behaving this way only when alone with a specific person.

The actual suggestion was for all one on one interaction.

Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by briatx on Sunday September 16, 2018 @09:11PM (#18002382)
It doesn't sound abusive to me at all. "Criticize privately, praise publicly" is a well known management trope.
Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 16, 2018 @09:12PM (#18002387)
"Be brutal in private" is not part of that trope though.
Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by andrewflnr on Sunday September 16, 2018 @09:52PM (#18002582)
It is, it's just a different phrasing. I think you're reading more into "brutal" than blazespin intended. You might be more correct in your interpretation, but I'm pretty sure they just meant "blunt", not "vicious".
Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by homonculus1 on Sunday September 16, 2018 @10:58PM (#18002833)
Then here's some bluntness:

People who don't mean "brutal" shouldn't use the word "brutal".

Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by FeepingCreature on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @01:47AM (#18012781)
You're mixing up your interpretation of "brutal" with theirs. Phrasing "mean brutal" implies there's an objective meaning. There isn't.
Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by Dylan16807 on Sunday September 16, 2018 @11:29PM (#18002973)
"direct and lacking any attempt to disguise unpleasantness"

Seems fine.

Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 16, 2018 @09:54PM (#18002594)
I'm pretty sure they just meant "blunt", not "vicious".

Let's hope you are correct.

Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by eeZah7Ux on Thursday September 20, 2018 @11:55AM (#18033399)
> "Criticize privately, praise publicly" is a well known management trope

That does not make it right.

Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by doctorless on Sunday September 16, 2018 @09:10PM (#18002380)
> That’s actually the very definition of abuse.

No it isn’t. From Merriam-Webster:

Definition of abuse

1 : a corrupt practice or custom — the buying of votes and other election abuses 2 : improper or excessive use or treatment : misuse — drug abuse 3 : language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily — verbal abuse a term of abuse 4 : physical maltreatment —child abuse sexual abuse 5 obsolete : a deceitful act : deception

They explicitly said they were upfront with their peers about how criticism is delivered. Whether that is true is beyond the scope of discussion; what has been said is nowhere near gaslighting or other forms of abuse. I don’t understand what has happened as of late, but the western world has taken a very strange turn in redefining terms to make the smallest of infraction or abrasiveness a great harm. Criticism does not need to be laced with praise to be useful, and justified critique does not equal abuse. That’s complete nonsense. Delivering it in private rather than publicly, if anything, seems more in consideration of the recipient’s feelings anyway.

With respect to the topic of this discussion, I will refrain from passing a judgment on Torvalds’ change of heart until we see quantitative data on how this has impacted the kernel.

Re:Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 16, 2018 @09:15PM (#18002404)
be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones

2: improper or excessive use or treatment

The OP self assesses their private behavior as brutal. I would call that improper or excessive.