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Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by Fricken on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:07PM (#17982605)
The infrastructure driverless vehicles rely on is their own internal maps, which have lanes and signage marked out. Being able to visually detect these things is important, but it is a measure for added redundancy.

Great strides have been made in using machine learning to filter out obscurants such as snow. Perception for autonomous vehicles is effectively a solved problem.

The biggest technical challenges are related to planning. So say you're approaching an intersection. There is a pedestrian about to cross, a cyclist in front of you and another vehicle waiting to turn left across your path. As a human, you understand that if you behave one way, it will cause the pedestrian, the cyclist and the other car to respond a certain way, but if you respond to the situation another way, it will cause all three to respond differently.

Our ability to game out scenarios like this is intuitive, but for AI to predict how it's behavior as an agent will influence the behaviour of other agents on the road is a daunting undertaking, particularly when taking into account the full scope of scenarios that need to be mastered before an autonomous can reliably safely navigate anywhere.

Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by linuxftw on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:22PM (#17982731)
> Great strides have been made in using machine learning to filter out obscurants such as snow. Perception for autonomous vehicles is effectively a solved problem.

Great strides is not 'perfected' and I don't think perception for autonomous vehicles is a solved problem whatsoever. What is a driverless car to do if it slides out of position on the road and is now facing the wrong direction? Does it have the ability to know whether it needs to call for help, can safely maneuver, it's occupants are in immediate danger and should exit the vehicle (or not exit the vehicle)?

Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by Fricken on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:28PM (#17982777)
The two key aspects of an autonomous OS are perception and planning. Being able to "see" well enough during a flurry is a perception problem. Knowing whether to maneuver out of it or call for help after spinning out is a planning problem. There are many planning problems left to address and master before autonomous vehicles are ready for widespread adoption. Some planning problems are unique to specific intersections, and dedicated software has to be written just for that intersection, like the intersection of Market and Castro, in SF, for instance.
Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by linuxftw on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:30PM (#17982804)
Can they perceive where on the road they should be located when the road is totally covered in snow and you can't see the pavement, let alone the line markets, possibly only tire tracks, if that?
Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by Fricken on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:36PM (#17982860)
Yes. An autonomous vehicle with lidar and maps can locate itself using any landmark, or series of landmarks it can see, it isn't limited to lane markings.
Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by joe_the_user on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:12AM (#17984831)
Just think, the remains of the last self-driving car will help the next self-driving car avoid the trap. But only if Google carefully catalogs it and no one moves the wreckage.
Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by linuxftw on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:41PM (#17982902)
And if there are no landmarks, such as you're on a highway or rural area, not in a city?
Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by Fricken on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:46PM (#17982936)
Not a ditch, or a barbwire fence, or a telephone pole or a tree? I guess that may be tricky.
Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by linuxftw on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:55PM (#17983002)
You can't reliably know the distance from pavement to any of those things unless you plan on indexing every physical object along every roadway.

I think the most likely scenario is self driving cars won't drive in those conditions, hopefully those conditions don't develop while you're on the roadways or you'll be parked somewhere cold.

Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by Fricken on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:59PM (#17983029)
They do index everything, the maps they rely on are lidar generated 3D point cloud fields that make a model of everything around the road, and are frequently updated.
Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by joe_the_user on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:07AM (#17984809)
Is "Market and Castro team" going to stay in existence indefinitely as the city of San Francisco modifies this intersection into the next century?

Will similar team exist for weird intersections in the middle of nowhere as well?

Will all these teams solve the problem of all the truck drivers rendered unemployed by "self-driving" vehicles?

Will all America's vehicles just wind-up instead being driven by tech support using joy sticks when the whole system goes south?

Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by markdown on Thursday September 13, 2018 @07:02PM (#17983472)
> Great strides is not 'perfected'

The goal isn't perfection. The goal is to be as good as humans.

Eg: An autonomous vehicle driving through snow backed by millions of miles of experience driving in snow is better than someone from the tropics driving through snow for the first time.

Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by logifail on Thursday September 13, 2018 @10:25PM (#17984298)
>> The goal is to be as good as humans.

Which particular humans?

>> An autonomous vehicle driving through snow [..] is better than someone from the tropics driving through snow for the first time

Better than the worst human we can imagine? Better than the average human? Better than the average human who drives on that road at that time of year?

Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by stretchwithme on Thursday September 13, 2018 @11:23PM (#17984464)
The very best limo driver seems like a good human to emulate.
Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by surfmike on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:22AM (#17984881)
Autonomous vehicles (rightly so) will be held to a higher standard than humans
Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by taneq on Thursday September 13, 2018 @09:50PM (#17984167)
> Perception for autonomous vehicles is effectively a solved problem.

The problem is that you can't separate "perception" from "cognition". A human could drive a car reasonably well via a webcam feed, so does a webcam count as "solved perception"?

Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by codebje on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:25AM (#17984656)
"Perception" in the context of autonomous agents means a mapping from sensors to a model of the world; how effectively can the agent establish a reliable model given its sensor readings?

What GP means by perception being a solved problem is that existing sensors and algorithms produce high quality and reliable models in a wide range of environment conditions.

A webcam is a sensor device, the human observing the webcam feed most likely cannot construct a good model of the car and its surrounds, as they can't do things like shoulder checking or looking in the rear view mirror, which a good driver does frequently to maintain a model of where other cars are.

But then "reasonably well" for a human driving a car remotely via webcam feed is likely to be a far lower standard than we're holding self-driving cars to.

Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by chongli on Thursday September 13, 2018 @11:11PM (#17984428)
As a human, you understand that if you behave one way, it will cause the pedestrian, the cyclist and the other car to respond a certain way, but if you respond to the situation another way, it will cause all three to respond differently.

Why does the self driving car have to restrict itself to extremely subtle human nonverbal communication? Just put a loudspeaker on the outside of the car and have it announce its intensions clearly, yielding to pedestrians/bicycles according to the laws of the land.

Re:Driverless Hype Collides with Merciless Reality by stretchwithme on Thursday September 13, 2018 @11:22PM (#17984458)
How about a man carrying a lantern ten paces ahead of it?