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Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by yourbandsucks on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:02PM (#17981390)
It's also the country that lifted 3-500 million people out of poverty in the last 30 years. And haven't invaded anybody in the last 60-70.

Just to provide a little balance. I'm worried about Xi's direction too, but overall we could do a lot worse as far as major powers to share the globe with.

You're 100% right about the market protectionism stuff, though.

(sidenote, the implication that Great Leap Forward was intentional is a little disrespectful, IMO -- that's not how it happened).

Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by ilamont on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:07PM (#17981444)
And haven't invaded anybody in the last 60-70

Except Tibet (https://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/chinese-invad...), Vietnam (https://thediplomat.com/2017/02/the-bitter-legacy-of-the-197...), India (https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/gk-current-affairs...), islands in the South China Sea claimed by other countries (https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/08/27/neighbor...), and unsuccessful attempts to seize islands controlled by Taiwan in the Taiwan Strait (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis).

Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by yourbandsucks on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:11PM (#17981476)
I forgot about the Vietnam thing. My bad, 40.

Still a very peaceful record compared to ourselves over the time period.

Why's everybody so invested up and loaded for bear with factoids about how China is so bad?

Have we terminally entered the Thucydides trap?

Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by carapace on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:53PM (#17981891)
"The Romans never allowed a trouble spot to remain simply to avoid going to war over it, because they knew that wars don't just go away, they are only postponed to someone else's advantage. Therefore, they made war with Philip and Antiochus in Greece, in order not to have to fight them in Italy... They never went by that saying which you constantly hear from the wiseacres of our day, that time heals all things. They trusted rather their own character and prudence — knowing perfectly well that time contains the seeds of all things, good as well as bad."

~ Machiavelli

YMMV

Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by Analemma_ on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:33PM (#17981669)
There are ways to avoid the Thucydides trap, but they don't involve clapping your hands over your ears and pretending everything is fine when it is not. No matter what they like to claim, China is an aggressive expansionist power, and simply ignoring that reality is not going to accomplish anything.
Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by yourbandsucks on Thursday September 13, 2018 @07:48PM (#17983703)
I'm with you, except for that 'aggressive expansionist power' thing.

I'm seeing one 27-day long aggressive war in 1979, previous ones are 1960s or before? And some current day peaceful-yet-obnoxious saber rattling about the South China Sea? (completely oppose them on that BTW).

That's... really not 'aggressive expansionist power', as far as these things go. France, for example, has been in more war over the last 30 or 60 years. Britain MUCH more war. US and Russia? Don't get me started. China is by far the least warlike Security Council member, and it's quantifiable.

I'm all about spreading enlightenment values. Let's try not to look like total hypocritical a-holes and maybe we'll be successful.

Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by ionised on Friday September 14, 2018 @06:13AM (#17986034)
Sports team politics.

They bad. We good. Even when facts suggest you're both different shades of bad.

Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by coldtea on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:20PM (#17981559)
Tibet was theirs for century though. And it, plus all the rest, are neighbours they have disputes with.

Not random countries 10000 of miles away they felt like bossing around...

Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by sgnelson on Thursday September 13, 2018 @06:44PM (#17983378)
So it's cool to invade countries next door if you have a dispute with them. But not okay if they're not your neighbors. What if they're technically not your neighbors, but still only like 100 kilometers away? Is that okay?
Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by coldtea on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:43AM (#17985429)
>So it's cool to invade countries next door if you have a dispute with them.

Straw-man much? It's not cool (and I didn't say that), but it's understandable. Neighbors have disputes, and that has been the case since forever, and it's understandable because they have common borders to settle (which are not god given), shared history, and so on.

Countries meddling with countries in the other end of the world just have imperialism and "national interests" to cheap oil and enforcing their preferred policies and ideology.

>What if they're technically not your neighbors, but still only like 100 kilometers away? Is that okay?

What if we stop asking silly questions and apply the principle of charity and/or common sense?

And yes, with nearby countries it's still natural to have disputes over e.g. this or that natural resource you both claim, this or that past war or whatever.

Now, France with Vietnam, the UK in Cyprus, or the US in Korea, not so much.

Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by sgnelson on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:53PM (#17990374)
I'm sorry, I was trying to better understand your argument which seemed to be focused on geographic distance as a form of whether it was acceptable or not to have armed conflict.
Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by jonny_eh on Thursday September 13, 2018 @07:08PM (#17983501)
Moving the goalpost?
Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by coldtea on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:48AM (#17985458)
No, establishing where it should have been naturally.

A country with shared borders and centuries of shared history with a nearby country is quite understandable to have disputes and even go to war with them.

With a country that had never interacted with it, and they have absolutely no reason being there (except entitlement and greed), not so much.

That's only controversial if one has blinders...

Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by iforgotpassword on Thursday September 13, 2018 @04:16PM (#17982126)
Exactly, but that doesn't go well with the murrican narrative, so you're being down voted.
Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by eastendguy on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:41PM (#17981759)
> And haven't invaded anybody in the last 60-70.

China is threatening Taiwan with war.

Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by rokyno on Thursday September 13, 2018 @04:55PM (#17982487)
And by China's definition, that's just a civil war if it happens
Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by platinumrad on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:36PM (#17982858)
And by the definition of one of the two major Taiwanese political parties as well. From Wikipedia:

"The Kuomintang holds the "One China Principle" and maintains its claim that under the ROC Constitution (passed by the Kuomintang government in 1947 in Nanjing) the ROC has sovereignty over most of China (including by their interpretation both mainland China and Taiwan)...Former ROC President Ma Ying-jeou had re-asserted claims on mainland China as late as October 8, 2008."

Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by eastendguy on Thursday September 13, 2018 @05:55PM (#17983000)
"claims on mainland in 2008"? Do you have a source or link for that? It's not here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Ying-jeou#View_on_independe...
Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by platinumrad on Thursday September 13, 2018 @06:16PM (#17983169)
"Ma said under the ROC Constitution, the ROC “definitely is an independent sovereign state, and mainland [sic] China is also part of the territory of the ROC.”

The interview was published yesterday.

Ma said despite the stipulation of the ROC Constitution, Taiwan cannot recognize the existence of another country, nor does China want to recognize Taiwan. In other words, under the ROC Constitution, “mainland China” is not a country."

from http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2008/10/08/2...

via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy

Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by brisance on Thursday September 13, 2018 @08:37PM (#17983912)
Ma Ying Jeou and the KMT have some persuasive arguments; there was an interview on YouTube where he eloquently explained why these claims exist; the mainland Chinese Communist party came to power without being elected by the people. Also, when Japan signed its surrender papers giving up its claims to annexed territories, the sovereignty reverted to the KMT government.
Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by platinumrad on Friday September 14, 2018 @05:26PM (#17991102)
I mean, the KMT of that era would have had even less of a claim of being the legitimate representatives of the people for any reasonable definition of "the people".
Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by sgnelson on Thursday September 13, 2018 @06:53PM (#17983424)
That's some nice revisionist history. I guess the whole "let's take over Islands in the South China Sea, and then convert them into military bases" doesn't count? Why is it that Taiwan spends billions of dollars on US weapons? Why is Japan increasing their military forces? Are they afraid of Godzilla?

China is trying to become a super power, as every great nation does. I've yet to see a nation do so peacefully. Just because they haven't yet launched a truly massive "peace keeping" mission.. well, I think it's a bit naive to believe they won't. History is a very useful tool, but you can't solely rely on an actor's past actions to predict the future.

(Also, I won't be replying to any whataboutisms.)

Re:Google Scientist Resigns Over “Forfeiture of Our Values” ... by yourbandsucks on Friday September 14, 2018 @10:55AM (#17987599)
It's just history. It's not revisionist.

I'm really impressed by the box you just built, though:

1) China isn't perfect

2) I won't tolerate comparisons to other world powers, that's whataboutism

3) Therefore, China is black-and-white evil.