News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by hwillis on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @05:55PM (#17963741)
Precious little detail on the batteries themselves. As with all solid state batteries, power is the Achilles heel. I'm skeptical this battery can make provide the 1+ C a car needs to run on the highway, but it's possible it may in the future.

According to [1], the specific energy is ~300 Wh/kg- the best li ion cells are ~275 Wh/kg, but only barely. When the OP article refers to 2-3x capacity improvements (2x on the website), it refers to energy density, or Wh per liter. That's not really considered an important metric except for phones. Unfortunately, the battery has to be over 150 Celcius for the solid electrolyte to work, so don't expect better phone batteries any time soon.

The way this would work is that cars would have a small conventional battery of ~15-30 kWh that could supply acceleration power and preheat the solid state battery. The larger battery would just back it up on long trips. How attractive this is depends 100% on how much power they can crank in the battery, since it isn't that much bigger than a normal battery.

Lots of people think solid state batteries will eventually replace liquid electrolytes, but it's effectively anyone's guess. We've had a lot of trouble finding high-power solid electrolytes for a looong time. The main benefits are safety related right now.

The basic reason is that conventional cathodes are highly oxidizing, so when a liquid electrolyte gets too hot it steals that oxygen and breaks down, causing a runaway reaction. Solid electrolytes and metallic cathodes don't have extra potential energy, so when there's damage to the cell like a short or overtemperature it simply burns itself out. The solid electrolyte is also far more stable and isn't very subject to breakdown from overtemperature or overvoltage.

[1]: https://qz.com/1383884/a-startup-promising-an-all-solid-stat...

Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by fulafel on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @01:03AM (#17965687)
I gather "1+ C" is "power capability" as explained at https://learn.adafruit.com/all-about-batteries/power-capacit... ?

With current batteries, there are just many tiny 18650 cells connected in parallel / series to get the desired power and voltage, right? Are you saying there are some unstated engineering limitations that would hinder getting to the desired "C" by connecting more battery cells in parallel?

Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by magnat on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:16AM (#17965963)
> Are you saying there are some unstated engineering limitations that would hinder getting to the desired "C" by connecting more battery cells in parallel?

When connected in parallel, each cell has to discharge at same rate within a small margin. That means you have to match cells by capacity and internal resistance during manufacturing process. The more cells you put in parallel, the more chance some of them will age differently and cause whole battery to underperform or fail spectacularly.

Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by pjc50 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:27AM (#17967089)
Yes, but Tesla already do this just fine with their huge 18650 cell packs.
Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by tehsauce on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:47AM (#17966093)
Thanks for this explanation, always wondered this!
Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by gdy on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:25AM (#17966494)
Could you elaborate why would that affect the battery as a whole?

And why the batteries have to discharge at the same rate in the first place?

Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by dogma1138 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:51AM (#17966627)
Because the load is spread equally if there is a difference in the capacity / internal resistance of the battery it can cause a higher load on it than it can safely discharge at that moment.

That said this is a problem with all batteries which is solved trough rebalancing: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_balancing

Without this we wouldn’t ba able to make battery packs with 100s not to mention 1000s of cells and even smaller battery packs would die much much sooner.

A good analogy would be if you have a boat with multiple people rowing and one of them can’t hold the same pace if you don’t adjust for it you aren’t going to hold course and if you don’t let the man catch a break they’ll pass completely eventually.

Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by hwillis on Thursday September 13, 2018 @12:17PM (#17979770)
> And why the batteries have to discharge at the same rate in the first place?

It's the definition of the cells being in parallel. Since they all have the same voltage difference (as the fronts and backs are all tied together with wire), they have to discharge at the same rate. The balancing dogma1138 was describing is done to allow some batteries to run at slightly different voltages so they all are at around the same state of charge.

Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by hwillis on Thursday September 13, 2018 @12:14PM (#17979745)
> Are you saying there are some unstated engineering limitations that would hinder getting to the desired "C" by connecting more battery cells in parallel?

Two batteries in parallel have the same C rating! You double the output current, but you also double the capacity. When you put cells in series, you change the voltage but the current capability and capacity stay the same. In both cases the C rating doesn't change[1].

The C rating is just how quickly the battery can discharge itself, so it is entirely dependent on the chemistry and battery conditions.

[1]: there are finer points; more batteries in series lowers output current slightly in practice, and batteries in parallel are quite complex to deal with. Cell size, construction and cooling all have large impacts on the C rating as well but at the end of the day it's simply how quickly a square centimeter of battery material can carry out its chemical reaction safely.

Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by CarVac on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @07:11PM (#17964237)
From your link:

>But the battery only functions properly at temperatures above room temperature and up to 150°C

It doesn't have to be over 150 Celsius, it has to be over room temperature.

Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by ChuckMcM on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @07:16PM (#17964271)
... and it can't be 'cold' like it would be in a car in winter pretty much anywhere?
Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by Bluestrike2 on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @09:41PM (#17964966)
A built-in battery header would serve as a workaround in many circumstances, and is already being worked on.[0] The heater would draw power when the car is charging to either keep the electrolyte above room temperature or preheat prior to expected use. You could even run the heater off standard 110v or 220v outlets, for instances where the car is parked but doesn't need to actually be charged (a garage might not be willing to deal with EV charging, but be fine with the relatively minor draw of a car's built-in battery heater in comparison). And when that doesn't work, you could probably run the heaters off the battery if you keep it from dropping too far, or a secondary battery as suggested by the grandparent.

There aren't really any perfect solutions, but cold temperatures are a problem we've dealt from the beginning with both batteries and internal combustion engines. My dad used to tell me stories about his time in Alaska as a teenager, and a bush pilot who would talk about when he'd have to pull the drain the oil from his plane, pull the battery, and take both inside overnight to keep them from freezing.

0. http://popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a21999984/e...

Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by p1mrx on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @10:14PM (#17965093)
> standard 110v or 220v outlets

That isn't the standard, at least not in North America (120V/240V) or Europe (230V):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country

Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by cptskippy on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:05AM (#17966710)
Those are nominal rms values, the range is plus or minus 10%.

I am not sure where it comes from but in the US it's not uncommon for supplies to be referred to as 220/110 rather than 240/120. They're generally understood to be the same thing.

Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by InclinedPlane on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @10:38PM (#17965198)
"110" or "220" are legacy terms for mains voltages in the US, they are still in common use.
Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by heisenbergs on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @08:16PM (#17964583)
i believe that's the case with current batteries too. Car batteries, such as Tesla's, require both heating and cooling elements to keep them in an acceptable temperature range. Unsure what the exact temperature range is, but my guess is it's not too far off of those ranges.

Interesting fact: Tesla achieves their ludicrous mode (2.3 seconds 0-100kph) by pre-heating their batteries so that more power can be drawn. During my test drive, it took an estimated 40 minutes to heat the batteries to do this...

Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by ianai on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @08:32PM (#17964648)
Do capacitors have the same problem? I know they’d take longer to charge than discharge, but I don’t know temperature requirements.
Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by Baeocystin on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @10:09PM (#17965070)
Capacitors are blindingly fast in both charging and discharging compared to chemical batteries, and are much less susceptible to thermal variance in performance to boot. Their downsides are greater mechanical fragility, greater self-discharge, and comparatively terrible energy density.
Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by snarfy on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:01PM (#17965286)
I believe it would depend on the type of capacitor. A metal foil capacitor would have no problem, but an electrolytic might. The rate for capacitors is so much larger than batteries I doubt it's actually a problem.
Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by termie on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @07:38PM (#17964373)
Perhaps the solid cells could be warmed up via some cheap coils powered by some bootstrapping liquid cells?
Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by Robotbeat on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @09:14PM (#17964828)
So like a diesel, it may need a heater circuit.
Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by DickVanDyke on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:24AM (#17967069)
I hope you see this, or if anyone can answer I'd appreciate it. Where does one go to research battery technology? What are the reputable journals? What is the discipline that is primarily motivated with researching battery technology?

Thanks!

Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by WilliamEdward on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @07:35AM (#17967426)
To answer your last question, chemical or electrical engineering mainly, but chemistry, physics, and material engineering are all involved as well. There's no specific "battery tech" major, you can dive in with any partially related background.
Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by jadbox on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @10:55PM (#17965264)
You seem to know a lot about batteries... do you know of anything promising to improving cell phone batteries in maybe the next year or three?
Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by saudioger on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @11:14PM (#17965328)
microwave charging
Re:Solid-state battery startup claims breakthrough for elect... by ddnb on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:39AM (#17966569)
Going to try it right now, thanks!