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Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by marcrosoft on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:11PM (#17930810)
"do the right thing" is difficult when you are suppressing free speech on a platform that's supposed to be all about it.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by Atlantium on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:14PM (#17930830)
Alex Jones is free to express his speech on his own website as much as he pleases. "Free Speech" is not about forcing a company to host content they don't like. That would be against Twitter's freedoms. Alex Jones will still be heard by his audience.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by nyolfen on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:19PM (#17930859)
maybe you haven’t noticed, but people have been going after hosting companies and payment processors lately to shut down people they find politically disagreeable. we are increasingly less and less free to host our own speech.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by LocalH on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:30PM (#17930938)
Every bit of it is done under the assumption that "freedom of speech only applies to the government", which is quite technically true. However, I don't really see how it would have been possible for the authors of the Constitution (since Twitter is a US company, and Alex Jones is a US citizen, it's within scope) to foresee that the greatest danger to freedom of speech would not be the government.

Honestly, we're probably at the point in our existence as a nation where we have the least freedom of speech. Sure, you can sit in a private conversion and say pretty much whatever you want. But, if you speak anywhere where the public can see it (even via private means), and you have an unpopular opinion, you have droves of people who try to shut you down. And it's not bad enough that they can get your access to your platform of choice revoked, some of these people will make it their life's mission to ensure that you lose your job or even worse become unemployable.

Look at what happened to Conor Daly after something his father said ten years prior to Conor's birth surfaced.

I'm waiting for the day when someone legitimately tries to argue that the rights of all of those descended from the Pilgrims should be taken away, since they took away the rights and land of Native Americans.

Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by TheDong on Thursday September 06, 2018 @09:02PM (#17931108)
> Honestly, we're probably at the point in our existence as a nation where we have the least freedom of speech

I think McCarthyism would like to have a word with you.

People have always been persecuted socially for socially unacceptable beliefs. If you said "I want to eat babies" 100 years ago, your friends wouldn't associate with you, just as they wouldn't now.

100 years ago you could say "I think people of the same gender as me are attractive" or "I wanna do it in the butt" and also be persecuted by your friends, though now both of those phrases are unlikely to see you condemned.

You can say more total things today without being persecuted I posit, however social persecution has been made into a far more public affair with the advent of social media and the 24/7 for-profit news cycle.

I think your speech is more free, but we hear more stories of social consequences due to the nature of news and social media, which creates biases and persecution complexes.

I admit I don't have numbers and facts to back it up, but neither do you have any evidence for your argument.

Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by LocalH on Saturday September 08, 2018 @12:30PM (#17941511)
Today, it seems we're approaching (if we're not already in) McCarthyism II. Except instead of being a top down thing, it's community-perpetrated. How many others have been silenced from major platforms that people don't know about because they're not as (in)famous as Alex Jones? I don't know, and I'd wager (a small amount) that you don't either.

The effects of that persecution are completely different. Sure, in the past you were more likely to be physically attacked for certain socially unacceptable beliefs. But nowadays, you're more likely to suffer long-term damage if you speak too controversially without taking great pains to hide your real identity, and even if you do the people who you anger with your speech may attempt to dox you anyway.

It's funny (in the sad way) that there are so many people of all types who will use certain "weasel" tactics themselves, but when their opponents use the same tactics, they scream "that's wrong, that's unfair, that's dirty". Almost like "the ends don't justify the means" has been perverted into "the ends justify the means only towards my opponents but never towards me".

I don't have evidence, no. But that's because this is a casual discussion for me.

Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by nyolfen on Friday September 07, 2018 @09:54PM (#17938956)
100 years ago, hordes of strangers couldn't ruin your medium- or long-term future from afar for those things
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by threeseed on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:29PM (#17930934)
Then run your own hosting company and accept money via Bitcoin.

You can't just force third party companies to do whatever you want.

Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by 0x4f3759df on Thursday September 06, 2018 @11:25PM (#17931646)
I don't see why he can't just terraform Mars and built his own Internet and Twitter there.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by nyolfen on Thursday September 06, 2018 @09:08PM (#17931124)
hate speech and racism absolutely are political, they are only outside of the overton window. i despise racists as much as anyone but i don’t trust anyone with the authority to police permissible opinions, and i think anybody who does is naive and short-sighted. if you construct these frameworks for suppression, they will be used against you by your enemies the second they have the opportunity.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by nyolfen on Saturday September 08, 2018 @09:41PM (#17943830)
just realized i replied to the wrong comment, apologies
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by 0x4f3759df on Thursday September 06, 2018 @11:27PM (#17931657)
Hate speech is a phony political category. Hate Christians and white people? Well that's just fine. Have a Twitter account that retweets verified people saying 'kill all whites'? That'll get you banned.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by TheDong on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:57PM (#17931091)
> shut down people they find politically disagreeable

It's not that. Hate-speech is not political. Racism is not political. Morality is not all that political.

Shutting down someone who denies shootings and is abusive to the victim's families and spews racism is not a political move.

People should condemn disgusting hate speech regardless of their political affiliation.

Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by nyolfen on Saturday September 08, 2018 @09:42PM (#17943831)
hate speech and racism absolutely are political, they are only outside of the overton window. i despise racists as much as anyone but i don’t trust anyone with the authority to police permissible opinions, and i think anybody who does is naive and short-sighted. if you construct these frameworks for suppression, they will be used against you by your enemies the second they have the opportunity.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by boxspam on Thursday September 06, 2018 @11:23PM (#17931636)
I hate how Xi Jinping is running China so strictly. The Russian Apartment Bombings was an inside job. Westerners should have no business in the Middle East.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by starik36 on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:24PM (#17930897)
That's like saying: Alex Jones is free to grow his own food on his land as much as he pleases. This supermarket has a policy not to sell food to people who violate our terms of service regarding hate speech.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by henryfjordan on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:28PM (#17930924)
The supermarket is free to not sell to any particular person on the basis that they constantly engage in hate speech.

It gets murkier when they start banning classes of people or ban someone for something that puts them in a protected class, but any supermarket that banned Alex Jones for hate speech would be well within their rights.

Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by starik36 on Saturday September 08, 2018 @02:25AM (#17939727)
Ok, let's take it one step further. All the supermarkets in town decide not to sell food to Alex Jones, essentially condemning him to starvation. Are you still good with that?
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by Atlantium on Thursday September 06, 2018 @09:32PM (#17931236)
Exactly. You may not like that but that's the way it is.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by enraged_camel on Thursday September 06, 2018 @10:13PM (#17931406)
If you go into a supermarket and constantly harass people, you will not only get banned, but probably arrested as well.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by fuball63 on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:29PM (#17930930)
It isn't unreasonable for a supermarket to forbid someone that is disturbing the peace from entering.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by TheDong on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:29PM (#17930932)
If you go into a supermarket and start spewing hate-speech, yes they have every right to ban you.

If you make other customers uncomfortable, they have every right to expel you.

Alex Jones is spewing hate-speech on twitter, making other twitter users feel unwelcome, and so on.

I don't see how this analogy is favorable to him at all. If you're abusive in a space to the point of causing mental pain to others, yes, you should be removed from it.

Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by boxspam on Thursday September 06, 2018 @10:55PM (#17931544)
> Alex Jones will still be heard by his audience.

Current audience. What about a new young audience? What about the part of the audience that wants to listen to him on Twitter?

> That would be against Twitter's freedoms.

I think you should be able to fire your users for being assholes. But I do realize the slippery slope here. I could discriminate on race, political preference, smell, weight, sexuality, age, etc. and that causes me to label someone an asshole.

Now Twitter, the biggest public and digital town square of our future, labels you an asshole, but does not specify exactly why. The global media town crier goes around town telling everyone you are now the new village idiot. Even if you vehemently agree with their decision, this should give you pause: How could such a system be hacked by adversaries/what vulnerabilities are exposed? How much unchecked social/tribal power is held in the hands of the few? What would such a system look like if it is artificially/clumsily converged to a majority opinion ideology chamber? Then, will you still be heard by your audience if you have a dissenting/unpopular/asshole opinion? Not too long ago "homosexuality is not a mental disorder" was an unpopular opinion. Do you trust our current evolution enough to say: "We are there. We can now freeze our morals and views."

Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by marcrosoft on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:22PM (#17930890)
I completely agree with you. I'm just saying that it must be a hard decision because they've previously chosen what to censor in the past giving them a censorship bias. We now know twitter is not a place of free speech but a place with the slant of X.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by trophycase on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:28PM (#17930921)
Jack Dorsey frequently said in the hearing that he wanted Twitter to be like a "public square" or "public forum". In fact he used the word "public" quite a bit, which is weird if you don't want to be regulated.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by natex on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:18PM (#17930853)
This is wrong. Is Twitter suppressing Jones' ability to say what he wants to? No. So they are not suppressing free speech. Twitter is banning a serial harasser from using their (privately owned) platform.

The analogy would be kicking someone out of your house for harassing your other guests.

Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by sheepmullet on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:25PM (#17930907)
> So they are not suppressing free speech. Twitter is banning a serial harasser from using their (privately owned) platform.

I’d argue Twitter is the modern day town square and it doesn’t matter if it is privately owned.

Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by chiefalchemist on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:34PM (#17930961)
Yes. Agreed.

Furthermore, Jones is a symptom. Banning him does cure the true problem. Does banning the likes of Jones make the MSM any more trustable? Or the MSM any more responsible? That seems unlikely.

Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by mmanfrin on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:16PM (#17930841)
Twitter is not 'supposed to be all about [free speech]'. It's a microblogging platform, not a political stance.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by lostlogin on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:22PM (#17930884)
I can’t see anything that says it’s all about free speech. I can see this though. “Freedom of expression means little if voices are silenced because people are afraid to speak up. We do not tolerate behavior that harasses, intimidates, or uses fear to silence another person’s voice. If you see something on Twitter that violates these rules, please report it to us.“

https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/hateful-condu...

Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by hoosieree on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:46PM (#17931037)
Twitter is "about" advertising; everything else is incidental. Bans only happen if Twitter believes that doing so (a) gains users or (b) prevents users from leaving.

Hate speech, election meddling, threats of nuclear war - it all gets a free pass until it stops generating "impressions".

But they only do it because we (as a group) let them get away with it. If 30% of Twitter users left, the platform wouldn't last a week.

Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by HBlix on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:22PM (#17930882)
How are they suppressing free speech? They’re not the government, they get to control their service just like any business, because they are also free.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by colordrops on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:33PM (#17930954)
This is a narrow view of the reality of speech in the US. Almost all public speech goes through private entities that are controlled by a small number of powerful connected people, giving them the de facto ability to censor speech.
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by themoonbus on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:18PM (#17930854)
Nobody's free speech rights were violated? I can't believe this has to be explained on hackernews... https://xkcd.com/1357/
Re:Twitter bans Alex Jones and Infowars for abusive behaviour by noisem4ker on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:29PM (#17930927)
Other than a constitutional right, free speech is a principle in itself.