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Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by oxymoron on Friday August 24, 2018 @01:34PM (#17836385)
Remember the Toyota uncontrolled acceleration bug and the report that came as a result of the trial. It seems like software is a bit of a second thought for some incumbents too.
Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by liber8 on Friday August 24, 2018 @01:51PM (#17836520)
Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but the Toyota issues were not caused by any software bug. Most cases were caused by people hitting the wrong pedal. The others were caused by floor mats that were a bit too long, causing the gas pedal to stick.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/its-all-your-fault-the...

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by Twirrim on Friday August 24, 2018 @02:09PM (#17836657)
Regardless of whether the acceleration were caused by the software or not, the testimonies for the software experts called in to review Toyota's source code for the case were eye-popping:

http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende...

> Skid marks notwithstanding, two of the plaintiffs’ software experts, Phillip Koopman, and Michael Barr, provided fascinating insights into the myriad problems with Toyota’s software development process and its source code – possible bit flips, task deaths that would disable the failsafes, memory corruption, single-point failures, inadequate protections against stack overflow and buffer overflow, single-fault containment regions, thousands of global variables. The list of deficiencies in process and product was lengthy.

>There are a large number of functions that are overly complex. By the standard industry metrics some of them are untestable, meaning that it is so complicated a recipe that there is no way to develop a reliable test suite or test methodology to test all the possible things that can happen in it. Some of them are even so complex that they are what is called unmaintainable, which means that if you go in to fix a bug or to make a change, you're likely to create a new bug in the process. Just because your car has the latest version of the firmware -- that is what we call embedded software -- doesn't mean it is safer necessarily than the older one….And that conclusion is that the failsafes are inadequate. The failsafes that they have contain defects or gaps. But on the whole, the safety architecture is a house of cards. It is possible for a large percentage of the failsafes to be disabled at the same time that the throttle control is lost.

etc. etc.

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by pwinnski on Friday August 24, 2018 @05:27PM (#17837989)
People quote this repeatedly here, but I'm not sure what it's intended to demonstrate.

Most code is buggy, and the more closely you look, the buggier it is. Most of that same code operates without noticeable error.

That code analysis turns up "inadequate protections against stack overflow and buffer overflow" does not actually suggest that there was any stack overflow or buffer overflow, and people quote this as if it does.

Meanwhile, it is all-but-certain that the overall findings were correct: people hit the wrong pedal regularly, and if enough press attention is given, all of those wrong-pedal-pushers find each other and try to blame the manufacturer instead.

You started with "Regardless of whether the acceleration were caused by the software or not," but I think that's the important thing, and that software is buggy should surprise nobody.

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by coatmatter on Friday August 24, 2018 @08:46PM (#17838917)
> Meanwhile, it is all-but-certain that the overall findings were correct: people hit the wrong pedal regularly, and if enough press attention is given, all of those wrong-pedal-pushers find each other and try to blame the manufacturer instead.

At risk of beating a dead horse, I do find it interesting how despite the myriad of "driver hit the wrong pedal" news stories out there, only the Prius one starts from the "it had a mind of its own" angle.

I think what most people don't realise is that it's so incredibly easy to be fallible with "automatic" familiar everyday activities (i.e., not maths or remembering facts). I recall in driving school approaching a quiet intersection where I once lost proprioception of my foot and had to call the instructor to use her dual brake because I didn't know where my foot was or could no longer reach the brake pedal (I guess I'd have attempted the hand brake if I were alone).

From this single experience along with running other dark hypotheticals through my head, I am so cautious with many things that it bewilders me that activities such as "carpool karaoke" is not an atypical practice.

But otherwise yep, same thing with software only that the stakes are often lower thanks to the sheer number of non-mission critical projects out there. It's only the mission critical bugs that get the most attention and surprise.

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by ams6110 on Friday August 24, 2018 @10:03PM (#17839139)
> I once lost proprioception of my foot

That's fascinating. I can say that is something I have never experienced. Does it happen to you with any regularity?

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by coatmatter on Saturday August 25, 2018 @11:48AM (#17841268)
No, I was just using a fancy word I've always liked because it seemed to describe things as best I could.

At one point in my life, I was simply an inexperienced learner driver. It isn't and wasn't a medical condition (for me anyway). I literally couldn't find where the brake pedal was because I couldn't really position my foot in the right place as I had clearly lost track of where it was in the footwell area. I also didn't want to take my eyes off the road and knew I was going slowly enough that nothing bad would happen (because the professional driving instructor had a dual brake, and I had a working handbrake too which I never used - we'll call that risk compensation).

Now all this said, it's incredible how many people are completely unaware of their own inabilities when it comes to mission-critical tasks (the Dunning-Kruger effect). This isn't even always limited to "incomptent" people - experienced professionals also make "simple" blunders. See also Air France 447, or various deceased pro/amateur race car drivers.

Speaking of failures though - another time (also while I was learning), I was reversing out of the car shed with my dad supervising. Before leaving, I complained to my mother (who was just outside the car) that my brake was difficult to press. She replied "just press harder", so I shrugged, obliged and went on with the "supervised" driving practice. Her confidence in me had me convinced that everything was fine so off I went.

Damn, the brake was so difficult to press - I needed both feet as well as some bodyweight on it to get the car to stop at each intersection - it hardly budged each time and felt like a dodgem car brake. I figured at the time that if I just kept things slow and got the handbrake ready, things would be okay? Anyway nothing bad happened; it was only a short session before dinner on quiet streets.

The next morning, my mother went to drive the car out of the shed and was alarmed at how broken the brake was. What was I to know - I was pretty new to driving and thought it was just the car being old and figured it was good enough at the time for my two feet. It was probably bad enough to require towing but I think my dad ended up driving it very slowly/carefully to the mechanic.

That was a bit of a long story, but I'm detailing this to highlight how "stupid" cascading failures are "alarmingly" common - it's not unheard of to exist in both the human side, or the electronic/mechanical side. It doesn't really faze me whether the Prius "acceleration bug" was human or machine induced. Both are often as bad as each other. The only thing we should depend on are multiple layers of redundancy and good systems design.

Edit: When I first started driving, I mulled over whether to go barefoot or not (either is legal here so long as the driver has control). These days, I fortunately can handle either confidently. I'm also much better at sport now (and therefore coordination) than when I was a teenager.

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by Avshalom on Friday August 24, 2018 @02:28PM (#17836825)
I mean it's a bit depressing but its only eyepopping if you suffer from murray-gelman amnesia about literally every piece of software even written.
Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by diiaann on Saturday August 25, 2018 @02:42AM (#17839874)
Koopman has a talk here on his blog that has more details about how ETCS (Electronic Throttle Control System) is safety critical. "If a driver pumps brakes, loses vacuum power assist...WOT requires an average of 175 lbs of force on brake pedal"

And what was particularly negligent about Toyota's software practices that "more likely than not" caused issues with ETCS.

https://betterembsw.blogspot.com/2014/09/a-case-study-of-toy...

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by gammatrigono on Friday August 24, 2018 @03:43PM (#17837358)
When you're paid to find errors in software, you point out every conceivable bug you can see.
Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by Moter8 on Friday August 24, 2018 @02:49PM (#17836989)
"Sorry, this content is not available in your region".

Welp, sadly I am not able to read your source.

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by grumblestumble on Friday August 24, 2018 @08:16PM (#17838770)
I actually experienced this with a rental car in South Africa. I drove for 10+ seconds with the engine revving at full blast with the car in neutral and no mat impacting the pedal. Both feet completely removed from any pedal, using the handbrake to decelerate and pull onto the verge. The floor mat thing is total deflection by Toyota. The only thing that reset the accelerator was turning the ignition off.
Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by camtarn on Friday August 24, 2018 @09:54PM (#17839114)
In the case, this could possibly have been limp-home mode. I believe this engages if the ECU thinks the throttle pedal is faulty. It disables the throttle and applies a constant throttle setting to allow you to continue driving slowly - it sounds alarming in neutral, but once you put the car in gear, the revs drop as the engine is required to produce torque.

Happened to my 2001 Clio several years back, although in my case it was when I started the car, not during driving. My hypothesis was that it triggered due to my bad habit of turning the car off in traffic queues then restarting it with the pedal held down.

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by lowry on Friday August 24, 2018 @01:47PM (#17836494)
It is common knowledge that Toyota uncontrolled acceleration bug was completely imaginary, see for example http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/08-blame-game
Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by eequah9L on Friday August 24, 2018 @02:18PM (#17836743)
Check out this, and the linked court transcripts linked therein: http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende...

The security researchers who were expert witnesses in the Toyota case and that analyzed Toyota's source code testified in court that they managed to reproduce the unintended acceleration with a real car on a dynamometer.

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by intern4tional on Friday August 24, 2018 @02:51PM (#17837008)
The linked trial testimony says otherwise. The engineer states he found bugs, and theoretically it might be possible he was unable to reproduce. Further, he evaluated the software against his own coding standard which was a variant of another.

The engineer was questioned:

" Q. Now, you have not reproduced in vehicle testing your 25 theory that there's a software bug that opens the THIS TRANSCRIPT IS NOT PROOFREAD 30 1 throttle and then the task dies, have you? 2 A. No."

From page 245. Further reproduction questions were all answered with a no further.

To get a successfully task death failure (what the engineer wanted to happen) the engineer had to modify the source code.

Further in the limited testing even with modifications, the failsafe triggered 100% of the time.

Your statement is incorrect.

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by eequah9L on Friday August 24, 2018 @05:28PM (#17838000)
I'm rereading, and I think you are right. I misremembered.
Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by lowry on Friday August 24, 2018 @02:27PM (#17836806)
Is it what people call fake news nowadays?

I once had a project with a major lobbying organisation with links throughout the automotive industry. The one that published regular reports on real vs declared emissions discrepancies long before the VW scandal.

They were unanimous when asked about the unintended acceleration bug. It was a case of mass hysteria.

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by arcticfox on Friday August 24, 2018 @02:42PM (#17836925)
Is it possible that the timing on your contact with them made a difference? It seems that NASA/NHTSA concluded in 2011 that it was a mechanical defect, but research concluding in 2013 showed that it was totally possible to have been caused by the software.

At least according to the summary based on sources used for Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle...

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by lowry on Friday August 24, 2018 @04:59PM (#17837859)
Hey,

The page you refer to has a section "NHTSA and NASA Investigation Verdict" and it says nothing about the software bugs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle...

Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by linseed on Friday August 24, 2018 @05:20PM (#17837951)
Re:Former Tesla Firmware Engineer Discusses the System by dewey on Friday August 24, 2018 @02:12PM (#17836682)
I started listening to that podcast a few weeks ago, that ones one of my favorite episodes. Can highly recommend it.