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Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by remote_phone on Saturday August 18, 2018 @02:35AM (#17787199)
SF spends over $300M a year on homeless and we still have homeless people defecating openly on Market Street during the day. They don’t even collect metrics to figure out if the money is working (which it’s not) or have any accountability.
Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by mac01021 on Saturday August 18, 2018 @03:22AM (#17787308)
Surprisingly (to me) it seems this is approximately true [1]:

> San Francisco reportedly is set to spend nearly $280 million in its next budget fighting homelessness – an average of $37,300 for each of the city’s estimated 7,499 homeless residents

I live in a place where I don't see homeless people even on a monthly basis. Maybe a fuew time's per year when I've ventured an hour or more from home. So I'm sure there is a lot of nuance to the problem of homelessness that I don't understand. Still, considering these facts naively, I fail to see how such a large amount of spending can fail to address the issue:

1. $30k per year is more than enough to enable a person to be not-homeless. Rent them an apartment, buy them groceries and medical care, etc.

2. If they refuse to live in that apartment because they have itchy feet, schizophrenia, or just don't like the wallpaper, then perhaps we should suppose that they don't consider their homelessness to be much of a problem.

3. If any of those folks who don't take the city up on the free apartment do something illegal, like defecating in public, they can probably be incarcerated or institutionalized for $30k per year.

4. Some of the people from #2 might not be eliminated in step #3, because they don't break any laws. Being that that's the case, even if we consider them to be a nuisance, shouldn't we just get over it and ignore them?

[1]: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/07/19/san-francisco-continues...

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by kweks on Saturday August 18, 2018 @05:18AM (#17787627)
Hi - small note from someone who has worked extensively with homeless. While each bullet point you make has a superficial logic, they are (unfortunately !) Incorrect due to erroneous assumptions.

If the "problem" was as simple as you assume, the solution pointed out would have already worked.

It's a complex problem, which requires complex solutions. In my experience, the major element is mental health. Many people are on the streets due to mental health issues, or develop mental health issues when on the street.

One take away note: most people are only two simultaneous life disasters away from being on the streets. One disaster (health / family / relationship / job) can typically be weathered, but two or more at once is typically catastrophic. There's many a PhD / CEO / father of four on the street.

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by agroot12 on Saturday August 18, 2018 @04:32AM (#17787498)
This is a fallacy - for all we know, SF might be spending that money to help 20,000 people to find homes, and 7,500 homeless people are still left or newly homeless.
Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by kofejnik on Saturday August 18, 2018 @04:04AM (#17787415)
> If any of those folks who don't take the city up on the free apartment do something illegal, like defecating in public, they can probably be incarcerated or institutionalized for $30k per year.

Should a non-homeless person be institutionalized or incarcerated for defecating in public?

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by _exobin_ on Saturday August 18, 2018 @04:44AM (#17787532)
Really there is a small but seriously problematic population of people in need of a high level of mental health care who I would guess are the primary perpetrators of public defecation + urination (schizophrenia, addiction/intoxication, etc.). The 1,320 homeless people needing the most aid required $106 million in emergency medical and mental health services in 2015. Putting this money to work institutionalizing these chronic cases seems like a sensible and responsible thing to do – and it isn't hard to pick these individuals out. Staff at the General know all the regulars.
Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by komali2 on Saturday August 18, 2018 @05:28AM (#17787656)
I mean, I feel you, but having witnessed first hand the hell of an incorrect psychological diagnosis followed by state ordered psych ward imprisonment, things can get ugly fast.

We'd need a very very good mechanism for deciding who gets institutionalized if we're going to start suspending legal rights. Far better than we have now. A Galaxy better than "staff at general recognizing" someone.

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by DoreenMichele on Saturday August 18, 2018 @04:48AM (#17787548)
Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by komali2 on Saturday August 18, 2018 @02:41AM (#17787212)
It seems you're implying that we should pull that money out of "on homeless" (not exactly sure what that means, can you clarify?)

So then what happens? The homeless die? What solution do you want?

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by woah on Saturday August 18, 2018 @10:59AM (#17788763)
There’s a common refrain that “SF doesn’t spend enough money on the homeless, because they are rich and greedy etc etc. if only there was some compassion!!!!” In fact SF spends as much money on the homeless as they spend on the streets and parks. This shows that throwing money at the problem hasn’t helped.
Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by ekianjo on Saturday August 18, 2018 @03:02AM (#17787262)
how about measuring the effectiveness of the programs using that money, and improving them at least even if you want to keep at the same budget? why is bad acceptable when you spend 300M a year?
Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by komali2 on Saturday August 18, 2018 @05:31AM (#17787671)
Do you have evidence that the city council is not measuring the effectiveness of that money, and improving methodologies?
Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by ekianjo on Saturday August 18, 2018 @07:26AM (#17788016)
If they are, then it looks like they are pretty bad at what they are doing. And since its a public program all measurements should be public as well, by definition.
Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by pests on Saturday August 18, 2018 @03:04AM (#17787268)
"on homeless"?

I'm sorry, but are these even people to you any more? Most might say "homeless people" at least.

The current thought is not to identify a person based on their primary characteristic at all any more.

These are not "homeless people."

These are "people who are currently homeless."

Not to point you out specifically as others in the discussion are using word choices like yours as well.

Lets put the person first.

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by dang on Saturday August 18, 2018 @02:55PM (#17789982)
This pointless flamewar began by breaking this site guideline: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." There are plenty of other plausible interpretations you could have reacted to, especially since the comment used the phrase "homeless people" a couple of words later in the same sentence.

Worse, you went for personal attack downthread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17787724). We ban accounts that do that, so please don't do that here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by gsich on Saturday August 18, 2018 @04:28AM (#17787486)
And what is the primary characteristic of a homeless person? "homeless" describes it pretty good.
Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by pests on Saturday August 18, 2018 @05:29AM (#17787662)
How about being a person? Or friendly? Or a good father?

When someone goes bankrupt most don't say "Oh this bankrupt person tried to [blah blah]."

It just seems weird to me with homeless we replace their entire personality with the trait.

The following sentences say the same thing but I feel they come across vastly different.

"The mentally handicapped person went to the store."

vs

"The person, who is mentally handicapped, went to the store."

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by PeterisP on Saturday August 18, 2018 @08:44AM (#17788211)
Because it's more informative. "a person" doesn't tell anything descriptive at all; "friendly" or "a good father" would be relevant if we were talking about their personalities, but if we're talking about their economic needs, then "homeless" is the single property that's most relevant to the discussion.

With your examples about mental handicap, the same principle applies - it matters what's the topic of the discussion, what's the next sentence, and thus where the emphasis should be. If the fact that that person is mentally handicapped is irrelevant to the rest of the story, then "person" is the part that should be emphasised; but if the mental handicap is the key factor for what happens next, then that is the most salient information of the sentence and it should be emphasised.

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by pests on Saturday August 18, 2018 @02:46PM (#17789920)
Then what is wrong with "person, who is homeless"?

Describe the man, don't define him.

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by gsich on Saturday August 18, 2018 @05:47AM (#17787719)
>How about being a person? Or friendly? Or a good father?

First one is obvious, every person is ... a person. 2nd and 3rd are not determinable by looking.

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by pests on Saturday August 18, 2018 @05:49AM (#17787724)
So then let them be people. Why do you need to distill a person down to one adjective?

Anyways, I can see this is pointless. I hope your day is as pleasant as you are.

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by gsich on Sunday August 19, 2018 @12:47AM (#17792659)
I know they are people. Why do you think otherwise? Don't you think about people when you read "homeless"? Makes me wonder, since you so strongly react to it.
Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by komali2 on Saturday August 18, 2018 @05:30AM (#17787666)
Artist? Mother? PhD?

Since we're firing off arbitrary primary characteristics, let's just choose "male" for me. Could be that I'm homeless. Could be I'm a billionaire. I could be a Nazi with heads in my freezer.

Dimunitive language dehumanizes. Why the effort to classify with a single word?

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by gsich on Saturday August 18, 2018 @05:48AM (#17787722)
>Why the effort to classify with a single word?

Reduce redundancy. Other "occupations" do this as well. You say "painter", not "people/person who paint(s)".

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by pests on Saturday August 18, 2018 @05:53AM (#17787741)
One, you choose your occupation.

Two, if you really want to reduce redundancy just use "person/people." Everyone knows if you say "homeless person", that that person is, in fact, a person. Seems like an extra word there.

If you want to be precise and point out someone is homeless, use "person, who is homeless." If two words and a comma is too redundant for you, see my first point.

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by gsich on Saturday August 18, 2018 @06:30PM (#17791198)
yeah, with the extra word being "person", not "homeless"
Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by pests on Saturday August 18, 2018 @05:37AM (#17787689)
I answered as well without seeing your comment but you phased this much better than I did. Thank you.
Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by _exobin_ on Saturday August 18, 2018 @04:49AM (#17787551)
I'm all for humanization, and some people can really be cruel. But I also think it is important to point out that 55% of the homeless population in SF has been homeless for a decade or more, and are not just "people who are currently homeless."

And at some point we have to accept imprecise language in service of useful abstraction (which is all language is).

Re:The Ugly Truth of Ugly Produce by pests on Saturday August 18, 2018 @05:29AM (#17787660)
I wouldn't say its imprecise or anything.

Just that focusing on the fact these are people first, and that homeless is something they are experiencing and not something they are, is important.