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Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by OskarS on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @11:01AM (#17758534)
This is from the letter signed by her colleagues:

We write as long-term colleagues of Professor Avital Ronell who has been under investigation by the Title IX offices at New York University. Although we have no access to the confidential dossier, we have all worked for many years in close proximity to Professor Ronell and accumulated collectively years of experience to support our view of her capacity as teacher and a scholar, but also as someone who has served as Chair of both the Departments of German and Comparative Literature at New York University. We have all seen her relationship with students, and some of us know the individual who has waged this malicious campaign against her. We wish to communicate first in the clearest terms our profound an enduring admiration for Professor Ronell whose mentorship of students has been no less than remarkable over many years. We deplore the damage that this legal proceeding causes her, and seek to register in clear terms our objection to any judgment against her. We hold that the allegations against her do not constitute actual evidence, but rather support the view that malicious intention has animated and sustained this legal nightmare.

It is crushing to see a statement like this signed by a person like Judith Butler. It is exactly the kind of response that have kept sexual harassment quiet for so long. "We know [accused harrasser], he would never act this way. We've worked with him for years, he's an honorable man, we know his character,... The accuser is just seeking attention/money in this malicious campaign". It just happens to be the case that the accuser is a woman in power this time.

Having a powerful feminist be accused of sexual harassment does zero damage to the feminist movement at large. If nothing else, #MeToo has taught us that there are harassers hiding everywhere, and even the people you least suspect can be guilty of it. This is just another example.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by eeeuo on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @03:57PM (#17761338)
The letter is a massive mistake. The most ardent feminists that I know aren't willing to defend it. It's absolutely and clearly hypocritical, and maps directly into every shitty, awful defense of a male sexual harasser, just with the pronouns switched. It's a shocking lapse of judgement that the co-signees were not able to understand that.

I find it frustrating that this letter gives cover to the kneejerk victim blaming defenses over the last year of male sexual harassers. It's a straightforward argument for those writers to point out that a group of world renown feminists, who have studied power dynamics in-depth, fell into the exact same trap. This is exactly the wrong conclusion to reach, and stalls the momentum of a movement that was doing genuine good. I disagree with the trend of dismissing due process in the #MeToo movement, but it is absolutely undeniable that it has brought justice to victims of horrible abuse, in a way that simply would not have been possible 2 or 3 years ago, and should be applauded for that.

Just an incredibly infuriating story overall.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by yostrovs on Thursday August 16, 2018 @08:32AM (#17774032)
"It's absolutely and clearly hypocritical, and maps directly into every shitty, awful defense of a male sexual harasser.."

I haven't seen any such similar defense of a male harasser. Some individuals dared to say something about someone here or there, but a letter by a group of leaders in the field that the accused works in... No, nothing of the sort.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by baud147258 on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @11:10AM (#17758619)
> Having a powerful feminist be accused of sexual harassment does zero damage to the feminist movement at large.

But then a person like Judith Butler should not sign such a letter, showing that she has not understood the power dynamics that have been keeping sexual harassment quiet.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by OskarS on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @11:16AM (#17758673)
I think her personal friendship with the Ronell is blinding her to the realities of the case. I think it's unfair to say that she "doesn't understand" these kinds of power dynamics. She's just human like everyone and she's made a terrible mistake signing this letter.

I should be clear: I'm a huge admirer of Professor Butler, and her writing has been very meaningful to me personally (though i recognize that many HNers might disagree). I still admire her greatly, but it just makes the disappointment so much greater. She should know better than this.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by baud147258 on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @11:56AM (#17759070)
Thinking some more on that case, in a similar situation (if I had a friend accused of a crime that I am trying to fight against), I don't know what I'd do. I most likely would still support my friend, so I might have been too harsh in my previous comment.
Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by karmajunkie on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @01:18PM (#17759832)
Just because it needs to be said, supporting a friend or family member and holding them accountable for things they did are not mutually exclusive ideas. It is perhaps emotionally tricky when the problem is viewed as a he said/she said argument, but in this case there seems to be evidence bearing out the allegations at least in part.
Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by DoofusOfDeath on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @01:27PM (#17759921)
Very well put. I wonder if the reason people try to support an accused friend by denying the allegations, is because alternative forms of support haven't occurred to them.

For example, if the accused continues to protest the accusation, a good friend might offer to help the accused bring the truth to light.

Or if the accused is clearly guilty, a good friend might offer to help the accused find appropriate ways to make restitution, and/or offer emotional/logistical support if the accused will be punished.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by bertjk on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @03:08PM (#17760923)
It could be mutually exclusive, if you think the expected punishment for being found guilty is unfair and disproportionate to the "crime".
Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by baud147258 on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @03:43PM (#17761206)
Thank you for adding some nuance to my statement wit a good point. I'll have to keep that in mind (supporting a friend or family member and holding them accountable for things they did are not mutually exclusive ideas)
Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by tathougies on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @03:04PM (#17760897)
We have been told not to forgive others for common human mistakes. Why should Professor Butler be given an exemption, especially when a lot of her scholarship has been aimed at addressing the unfortunate responses to the very same situation?
Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by yostrovs on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @04:34PM (#17761649)
To add, the accused professor is, along with the signers of the ridiculous letter, are obviously completely corrupted. Similar to politicians who campaign on fighting corruption and then go and do it themselves, this woman should be treated as an academic criminal and forced to retire and be forgotten about in the field. Kind of like former governor Blagojevich of Illinois, though they don't have prisons for corrupt career academics.
Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by jules on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @01:11PM (#17759779)
Did you really think that she was ever about principle rather than pragmatic tribalism?
Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by ZeroBugBounce on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @02:13PM (#17760411)
I'm not sure about this particular person in question, but it seems to me one never knows who will stick by the principle instead of "their side" until real-world challenges come along to "test" those principles. I'd wager even the persons being "tested" don't really know what they'd do under such circumstances.

My feeling is that it's rare to stick to the principles at hand compared to protecting your own (and I mean for any group/tribe not any specific one).

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by lazysheepherd on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @02:50PM (#17760765)
Thank you jules, this is really the bottom line of the whole article IMO.

We should support feminist agenda and movements like #MeToo. But to keep ourselves sober to whole movement, at the same time we should never forget there's a strong tribal element to actions of these people. And hopefully keep the effects of these in just in the right levels.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by gwbas1c on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @03:54PM (#17761307)
I must admit that, if a close colleague of mine was accused of something that I did not believe to be true, I could be compelled to sign something like that.

The lesson we need to learn is how powerful and misleading our biases and emotions are.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by patrickg_zill on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @01:41PM (#17760102)
I'd note that all the feminists were fine with Title IX star chambers with oppressive rules that hampered a good defense... As long as it could be a cudgel to be used against "misogyny" and "patriarchy".

They are only unhappy now that someone they value is under the same rules.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by moate on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @03:12PM (#17760953)
Hello, I'm a feminist. Not unhappy that people who are committing sexual crimes are being brought to justice.

Your wide brush is counterproductive to the "logical and open" discussion here. The whole point of the article that you read in its entirety and internalized before commenting upon it was that this is difficult for some people to accept: a champion of women's rights was perpetrating the crimes she seemed to be fighting against. Reconciling these truths is difficult for some people, and some people who worked closely with this woman will come to defense of her character as they knew her.

Hypocrites abound. In fact everyone holds some conflicting views/acts in ways that work against their self interest. It's human nature. But not everyone who you disagree with is a hypocrite. Hell,some of them aren't even objectively wrong! But if you only exist in an in-group vs. out-group mindset you're going to miss some great points.

TL;dr- Title IX is great, and it seems like this woman is both a renowned academic AND a sexual abuser.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by headmelted on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @03:44PM (#17761208)
I think you've distilled the debate perfectly to it's uncomfortable and anachronistic point.

I think what it comes down to is that some people (myself included) are finding it hard to give the benefit of the doubt here when the character defence being offered so closely parallels what's been said in the past in defence of brazen male perverts.

That said, I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding in and out groups, and we should simply be looking at this as: a person has been wronged here, what's the appropriate response?

There's a reason the law as written doesn't discriminate offences on race or gender.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by newswriter99 on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @03:28PM (#17761074)
I'm curious as to how often you go out of your way to criticize the lack of logical and open discussion in feminist circles.

I'm in the journalism industry, and have seen time and time again one-sided mob psychology suffocate anyone even considering to constructively criticize the movement.

If you can't admit just how extremist and tribal the current atmosphere is, I don't think you're going to be able to appreciate the perspective of the person you're replying to.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by beat on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @05:02PM (#17761869)
As a journalist who presumably is covering feminism, are you familiar with the ongoing back-and-forth between second wave feminism, third wave feminism, and intersectional feminism? Do you know what a TERF is?

I see a lot of healthy debate and constructive criticism within feminism.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by moate on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @04:44PM (#17761725)
Is "when I think they're wrong" often enough?

You're just restating my point back to me. Remember when I said this: "Hypocrites abound. In fact everyone holds some conflicting views/acts in ways that work against their self interest. It's human nature. But not everyone who you disagree with is a hypocrite. Hell,some of them aren't even objectively wrong! But if you only exist in an in-group vs. out-group mindset you're going to miss some great points."

That's the same thing as admitting that tribal behavior is a problem. My whole POINT is that the tribal behavior/generalized statements (like "all feminists") creates a breakdown in the discussion.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by patrickg_zill on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @03:55PM (#17761316)
Read up on Erin Pizzey, if you truly have a "logical and open" mind on this subject.
Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by moate on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @04:49PM (#17761760)
Is there anything specific I'm supposed to feel about her to show my open mind? Seems like a nice enough woman who primarily earned her living selling books. Public opinion turned on her, she couldn't sell her books, and she's had a rough go of things. Shelters for victims of domestic violence are a public good, and women can be abusive. Not all feminists are nice people, some of them have political agendas that are meant to replace a patriarchy with a matriarchy and her opinions didn't jive with that, so they likely put pressure to silence her voice.

I'm still a feminist though, and other than learning one woman's story I genuinely don't understand what was supposed to happen here.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by patrickg_zill on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @05:20PM (#17762013)
A woman who started the very first DV shelter in the world, then was ostracized by the entirety of mainstream feminism for stating forbidden truths.

This isn't a debate between 2 equal factions, as you've seemed to cast it: it was a Stalinist style purge of all who didn't hold the correct opinions; with the same people who committed the purge, still in control today.

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by moate on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @05:37PM (#17762141)
A group of people did a bad thing to a lady. There were many people in the group and they had more power/agency which they leveraged against this lady for reasons I can only speculate on because I wasn't really alive at the time or invited to the meetings. In all likelihood I wouldn't get along very well with these people. They're part of a group I don't consider myself associating with.

I'm still a feminist, and I still don't understand why I can't be a feminist and also believe the story I just told. The fact that "mainstream feminism" ostracized Pizzey has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. I guess I'm not a mainstream feminist?

Is this mainstream?: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/01/19/feminism-inte...

This is pretty close to me.

FWIW, I think very few people exist as absolutes but typically shades of grey. IDK what "good" or "bad" people are anymore, just good or bad actions. Promoting equality is something I find to be a good action. That is what I feel feminism represents (or should represent, or represents to me).

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by metalliqaz on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @02:28PM (#17760568)
So much this.
Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by rosser on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @03:19PM (#17761004)
I'm so glad we can put aside our stereotypes and narratives and have constructive, un-hyperbolic discussions about these nuanced topics on this site.
Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by patrickg_zill on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @03:25PM (#17761051)
Name a prominent feminist that came to the defense of the proven-innocent Duke lacrosse team, prior to the prosecutor, Mike Nifong, being shown to be a liar.
Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by rosser on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @03:27PM (#17761063)
Relevance, beyond, "What about this bad thing some of these people I don't like did"?

Specifically, what about these cases is remotely illustrative of "all" of anything?

Re:What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused? by patrickg_zill on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @03:31PM (#17761105)
"Pattern and practice of behavior," your Honor.