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Re:Alcubierre drive by krapp on Monday August 13, 2018 @05:53AM (#17749041)
>Imagine the "pollution" caused by civilizations which are advanced enough to tinker with the fabric of spacetime, but not advanced enough to understand (or care about) the long-term consequences of that tinkering.

I once had, and never used, an idea that the consequence of using such technology was to accelerate dark energy, so that the more civilizations used FTL travel, the greater the energy requirements became. As if seafarers had to deal with the oceans expanding just a bit every time they were crossed.

Re:Alcubierre drive by Razengan on Monday August 13, 2018 @06:02AM (#17749075)
> so that the more civilizations used FTL travel, the greater the energy requirements became.

That sounds like a recipe for some terrible monopolization by the first few civilizations that manage to achieve FTL:

Those who are the earliest to expand into the universe, would have access to the most resources, so they would be the only ones left who can afford to use FTL anymore, while younger civilizations may never have a chance to get out of their home stars.

Re:Alcubierre drive by JumpCrisscross on Monday August 13, 2018 @09:48AM (#17750022)
> Those who are the earliest to expand into the universe, would have access to the most resources

Eons ago, the universe was room temperature. I've always wondered how an intelligent species adapted to that time would perceive our universe.

Re:Alcubierre drive by cgriswald on Monday August 13, 2018 @02:53PM (#17752589)
Likely, he wouldn't. The window in which the universe was roughly room temperature is very narrow in astronomical terms, so even if life did form during that period, it probably would not have been able to form even animal life, much less intelligent life.
Re:Alcubierre drive by Razengan on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @01:46AM (#17755834)
If everything was happening faster back then, and if we assume there were more interactions between everything and more kinds of interactions back then, then life and intelligence may have evolved faster too.
Re:Alcubierre drive by cgriswald on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @10:33AM (#17758277)
There's no reason to expect more kinds of interactions; the laws of physics were the same then as they are now. It also isn't clear that there would be more interactions. Galaxies hadn't formed, even if we stipulate that stars could have. So, the good: wherever a planet forms it should be warm enough for life (although it could still be too warm if it's close to its parent star). The bad: There are probably far fewer planets and ingredients for life and there is precious little time. For reference, for intelligent life to form during this period, it would have had to have done so at a rate of about 500:1 compared to the evolution of homo sapiens on Earth. Even life evolving in this narrow window would be difficult (~50:1 compared to on Earth).
Re:Alcubierre drive by dogma1138 on Monday August 13, 2018 @07:07AM (#17749250)
That also sounds like a recipe for maintaining causality as in the faster you are trying to go to more you’ll expand space time maintaining the luminal speed limit from the point of view of an observer.
Re:Alcubierre drive by krapp on Monday August 13, 2018 @06:27AM (#17749138)
>That sounds like a recipe for some terrible monopolization by the first few civilizations that manage to achieve FTL:

Yeah, that's where the "evil empire/East India Trading Company but in Spaaaaace" was going to come from. I wanted to use hyperspace/FTL as a vague metaphor for a scarce but crucial resource like fossil fuels (or whale oil, back in the day.)

Re:Alcubierre drive by Razengan on Monday August 13, 2018 @06:41AM (#17749176)
> "evil empire/East India Trading Company but in Spaaaaace"

I think it would be much more sinister.

The FTL controllers would be seen as gods by species who have yet to leave their homeworld. Every civilization within their sphere of influence would be either have to be their allies, thralls, unable to move around in the galaxy unless they get piggyback rides by the FTL barons, or engulfed and extinguished by them.

Imagine if we in the real world found out that there was no way to explore the universe we've been observing for centuries, unless we allied with some alien species that does not, can not, have our best interests on their minds.

Interstellar travel would require resources, and resources would require interstellar travel..

To go against the FTL species you would need to control at least as many planets as they do, and to control that many planets you would need FTL travel..

Sounds like a monumentally hopeless reality.

Re:Alcubierre drive by TeMPOraL on Monday August 13, 2018 @06:53AM (#17749205)
> Sounds like a monumentally hopeless reality.

In terms of darkness and hopelessness, this is getting close to Cixin Liu's The Three-Body Problem trilogy.

A rot13 spoiler follows.

V xabj V fgvyy unir cnatf bs rkvfgragvny qernq nsgre gur frpbaq be guveq obbx vagebqhprq gur pbaprcg bs qvzrafvbany erqhpgvba jrncbaf. Onfvpnyyl, n fhcrejrncba gung fgnegf n furrg bs 2Q fcnpr rkcnaqvat ng yvtug fcrrq, juvpu erqhprf rirelguvat vg gbhpurf, vapyhqvat fcnpr vgfrys, gb 2Q. Vg'f bar bs znal JZQf ninvynoyr gb cbjreshy fcrpvrf. Abj gur qnex guvat vf, vg pna'g or fgbccrq. Bapr hayrnfurq, vg'yy xrrc rkcnaqvat ng yvtugfcrrq, qr-qvzrafvbavat fcnpr sberire. Ohg fcrrq bs yvtug vf fb fybj, gung lbh pna qebc vg ng lbhe rarzl'f ubzr flfgrz naq abg pner nobhg vg sbe zvyyravnf.

Nsgre gung, sbyybjf gur dhrfgvba. Unir lbh rire jbaqrerq jul jr yvir va 3Q fcnpr naq abg, fnl, 12Q? Gung'f jul.

Re:Alcubierre drive by Razengan on Monday August 13, 2018 @10:19AM (#17750269)
Decoding it to ROT18 makes some amusing changes to the numbers.

I think I have kinda grown out of such existential dread, once I started having a sort of intuition that the Universe is too inconceivably large to be uniformly altered, let alone "damaged", by any single event or entity (which also makes me cringe at sci-fi which throws the word "universe" around so lightly.)

More importantly, I started thinking of the "backdrop" of Reality itself to not be Nothingness, but Everythingness.

That is, the blackness we see out there, must not be the default state. I imagine a flood of "white" behind the void, and the reality we perceive is just a heavily-filtered slice of it.

What led me to this way of looking at things was a comment on HN or Reddit, that talked about how, in certain axioms of mathematics, you can have a null/empty set but it's impossible to have a set which contains everything including itself. Whereas in another group of rules, it's impossible to have an empty set because everything else is arrived at by "subtracting" from the "infinite" set!

Maybe someone here knows better of what I'm referring to.

Re:Alcubierre drive by Daneel_ on Monday August 13, 2018 @07:27AM (#17749310)
Nice use of rot13.
Re:Alcubierre drive by TeMPOraL on Monday August 13, 2018 @07:56AM (#17749403)
Why thank you. It's common elsewhere in places that don't have rich comment markup supporting spoiler tags; it dawned on me recently that I didn't see it used much on HN for some reason.
Re:Alcubierre drive by crankylinuxuser on Monday August 13, 2018 @09:18AM (#17749787)
And don't think for a minute that the first human company that gets that tech wouldn't do the exact same thing.

Wilbur and Orville Wright did precisely that for flight until the US govt dismissed the patents due to WWI. The patents, and their insane lawsuits, were poisoning the whole US on flight. Europe grew by leaps and bounds, and had all sorts of aircraft.

Re:Alcubierre drive by throwawaykf05 on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @08:46AM (#17765584)
This story is oft-repeated here but this paper provides convincing historical industrial evidence that it's a myth: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2355673
Re:Alcubierre drive by JetSpiegel on Monday August 13, 2018 @12:32PM (#17751347)
Sounds like the Spacing Guild from Dune.
Re:Alcubierre drive by krapp on Monday August 13, 2018 @07:03PM (#17754239)
>Sounds like a monumentally hopeless reality.

Well... actual reality doesn't even old much hope for FTL.

Re:Alcubierre drive by Razengan on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @01:33AM (#17755788)
hah but at least, we seem to have the luxury of exploring our neighborhood at our own pace, in any direction, without capitulating to alien overlords.
Re:Alcubierre drive by naravara on Monday August 13, 2018 @12:14PM (#17751185)
>I once had, and never used, an idea that the consequence of using such technology was to accelerate dark energy, so that the more civilizations used FTL travel, the greater the energy requirements became. As if seafarers had to deal with the oceans expanding just a bit every time they were crossed.

I believe one of the aborted ending ideas (and dangling plot-threads) for the Mass Effect series was something like this.

Like use of "Element Zero" (the exotic matter unobtanium that powers everything, including FTL travel) releases some kind of "dark energy" that is bad for vaguely defined reasons; one of which being that it destabilizes stellar fusion and makes stars go nova prematurely.

So the "Reapers," or big-bads of the series, were an ancient civilization that set up a recurrent process of culling nascent advanced civilizations to prevent them from growing and using such technology to problematic levels.

They ultimately scrapped it and went with an "AI and Man can't coexist" angle instead.

Re:Alcubierre drive by Razengan on Monday August 13, 2018 @12:37PM (#17751381)
Star Control II, one of the inspirations for Mass Effect, also had some very interesting cosmic-scale intrigue, between many different species interacting over eons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Control_II

Re:Alcubierre drive by Zanni on Monday August 13, 2018 @06:53AM (#17749206)
You might enjoy John Scalzi's latest, The Collapsing Empire. Not quite the same, but it does feature fast "currents" in spacetime that are in the process of "drying up," leaving distant systems stranded by uncrossable gulfs.
Re:Alcubierre drive by pavel_lishin on Monday August 13, 2018 @10:05AM (#17750147)
I've read a scifi story with this exact plot, so it looks like you're not alone!
Re:Alcubierre drive by macintux on Monday August 13, 2018 @04:21PM (#17753297)
Yeah, it's driving me crazy that I can't remember the author or title. As I recall there are some older species desperately trying to keep younger worlds from using the technology because the problem is going to keep getting worse.
Re:Alcubierre drive by pavel_lishin on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @11:17AM (#17758676)
I want to say it's a Ted Chiang story, but I'm not sure why - probably because his is the last collection of short stories I recall reading - but none of the titles listed look familiar.
Re:Alcubierre drive by macintux on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @11:47AM (#17758974)
I don’t think so; as far as I know, I’ve only read his story that was adapted for Arrival.