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Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by leereeves on Thursday August 09, 2018 @06:35PM (#17729148)
Strong nationalism doesn't help multi-national corporations. It either prevents their operation entirely (for example, bans on imports and nationalization of assets as in Iran) or exploits them only when the government decides the country will profit more than the company (as in China).
Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by perfmode on Thursday August 09, 2018 @06:37PM (#17729165)
it’s not so simple. one side effect of strong nationalism is a restriction on the flow of people. when capital can flow freely, but people can’t, multinationals gain an advantage.
Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by leereeves on Thursday August 09, 2018 @06:41PM (#17729189)
The mere existence of nations prevents the free flow of people.

"Nationalism" usually means something stronger than the existence of nations, such as "the belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals".

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by perfmode on Thursday August 09, 2018 @07:02PM (#17729299)
it is nationalist policy that restricts flow.
Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by leereeves on Thursday August 09, 2018 @07:34PM (#17729489)
All nations do that. A definition of "nationalist" that includes every nation isn't particularly useful for distinguishing the policies of nations.
Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by TheCoelacanth on Thursday August 09, 2018 @07:56PM (#17729586)
All nations are at least a bit nationalistic. If they weren't at all nationalistic, they wouldn't be nations.

Restrictions on the free flow of people are not a binary decision. Countries in the Schengen Area which have almost completely given up the ability restrict movement between their territory and 25 other nations are not restricting the movement of people as much as say North Korea which doesn't even let most of its own citizens travel abroad.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by leereeves on Thursday August 09, 2018 @09:21PM (#17729974)
By that definition the US is the least nationalist country on the planet. 20% of the world's foreign born population lives in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d...

And it seems to me that it's that lack of "nationalism" as you've defined it that's helping US-based companies exploit cheap labor in (or from) other nations.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by TheCoelacanth on Thursday August 09, 2018 @11:04PM (#17730395)
Even if you were to define nationalism solely based foreign-born population, the least nationalistic country would obviously be Vatican City with 100% foreign born or UAE with 84% if you want to exclude extreme outliers. The US isn't even particularly high at 14% of the population being foreign born.

And of course, restrictions on freedom of movement can't be summed up exclusively with number of immigrants. There are many countries that are much, much easier to get into than the US; people just don't want to go there as much. And of course, nationalism isn't exclusively border control. That is just one nationalistic behavior.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by leereeves on Friday August 10, 2018 @06:27AM (#17732074)
I think you know I was only offering foreign born population as an example of the US's freedom of movement, not as the definition of nationalism.

If you're intentionally misinterpreting me, this discussion isn't going anywhere. But in the hope that that's not the case, I'll try again:

What country offers freedom of movement to the most people? The US, by far.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by TheCoelacanth on Friday August 10, 2018 @10:32AM (#17733552)
Nonsense, you are completely ignoring country size, and even in absolute numbers every country in the Schengen Area allows every citizen of other Schengen Area countries complete freedom of movement. For any given country in the Schengen Area, that is more foreigners who are allowed complete freedom of movement than the entire population of the US, much less just the foreign born population of the US. Just because most of those people don't choose to exercise that ability, doesn't mean they don't have it.
Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by leereeves on Friday August 10, 2018 @10:47AM (#17733693)
The Schengen area is more like the US itself. A federal system of once independent states uniting to eventually form a single nation.

The freedom to move from France to Germany, or from California to New York, has nothing to do with the freedom of movement of people born outside those systems.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by TheCoelacanth on Friday August 10, 2018 @10:54AM (#17733766)
LOL, you are basically saying that by entering into an agreement like the Schengen Agreement and becoming less like nations, the overall group becomes more nationalistic. That seems like absurd circular reasoning.

The constituent countries in the EU are still sovereign countries. Unlike US states, they are free to leave at any time.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by leereeves on Friday August 10, 2018 @11:00AM (#17733845)
By your definition of nationalism, Europe is simply replacing French/German/etc nationalism with EU nationalism.

The EU already has a parliament, "federal" laws, and a single currency. They're building an EU army and discussing federal taxes. At what point do you call them a nation?

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by TheCoelacanth on Friday August 10, 2018 @12:18PM (#17734663)
You are engaging in absurd double-think. Loosening restrictions on movement is not tightening restrictions on movement no matter how many mental hoops you try to jump through.
Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by leereeves on Friday August 10, 2018 @04:06PM (#17736349)
This discussion is becoming too hostile for Hacker News. I'll make one more attempt to explain my point of view, then I'm out:

Loosening restrictions on select people is not loosening restrictions on everyone.

Vatican City, with their tightly controlled migration policy, is not the country with the most freedom of movement simply because they allow freedom of movement to carefully chosen people.

In the Vatican, for example, a given person either has a 100% chance of migration or a 0% chance. Israel has similar numbers. In the Schengen area, it's either a 100% chance or a very small chance.

Update:

Perhaps this will be clearer. Every free country grants total freedom of movement to some group of people. In Israel, this is Jewish people. In the United States, US citizens. In the Schengen area, citizens of the Schengen area.

What does that have to do with nationalism? Nationalism is a distinction between the treatment of in-group people and out-group people.

In the Schengen area, people from the Schengen area are the in-group.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by TheCoelacanth on Friday August 10, 2018 @10:55PM (#17738014)
This line of argument is absurd. You cannot become more restrictive by becoming less restrictive.
Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by leereeves on Saturday August 11, 2018 @02:27PM (#17740903)
Nationalism isn't standalone, it's tied to a particular nation.

Changing loyalty to a larger nation isn't the same as becoming less nationalistic.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by TheCoelacanth on Saturday August 11, 2018 @06:12PM (#17741837)
The Schengen Area is not in any sense a nation. Look at the definition of the word nation: "a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory". The Schengen Area checks off people and territory but nothing else.

It doesn't even have a shared government to try to make it fit if you are trying to use "nation" as a synonym for "country". Most of the countries are part of the EU, but Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland are part of the Schengen Area but not the EU.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by leereeves on Saturday August 11, 2018 @07:01PM (#17742001)
> united by common descent, history, culture, or language

Are you saying Europeans don't have any descent, history, or culture in common?

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by TheCoelacanth on Saturday August 11, 2018 @10:09PM (#17742575)
Descent, mostly not. Culture, mostly not. History, yes, of constantly fighting each other for hundreds of years (which is the type of shared history that creates national separations, not the kind that unites nations).

There are some groups of countries that have some descent and culture in common like Portugal/Spain or Benelux or Scandinavia, but there is no pan-European culture. Portugal, Greece, Monaco, Latvia and Iceland have almost nothing in common.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by leereeves on Monday August 13, 2018 @04:35PM (#17753425)
Then why hasn't the Schengen area admitted north Africa or the middle east?

Spain is a lot closer to Morocco than to Norway, but Spain partnered with Norway rather than Morocco because they share the same descent (European) and culture (Christian).

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by shanghaiaway on Friday August 10, 2018 @09:37AM (#17733079)
China offers far more freedom of movement. US is at the bottom. By far.
Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by leereeves on Friday August 10, 2018 @10:49AM (#17733709)
China doesn't even offer freedom of movement to its own citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by User23 on Thursday August 09, 2018 @08:43PM (#17729809)
The free flow of people historically involves all the males on one side getting murdered or enslaved and the women raped. The DNA evidence incontrovertibly supports this.

I’d say the idealistic nationalist sees each nation akin to a cell in a cellular automaton and believes that each nation looking after itself in the context of some fundamental rules will achieve better outcomes globally, not just locally, than heavy handed large scale top down control, aka empire.

Taleb cogently argues that scale is of fundamental importance to understanding human behavior. I also accept the argument that distributed local control is generally to be preferred.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by sonnyblarney on Friday August 10, 2018 @12:15AM (#17730637)
No, again, sorry I think this is wrong.

Multinationals are almost all in favour of open borders.

They want a) cheap labour and some, good companies need b) high end talent. The later is more rare though.

Every big company I know is 'pro migration' I can't think of a single one that's against it.

Google is more in favour of getting 'highly skilled' people, while most others are in favour of 'bodies' for cheap labour. Companies that are allowed to think long term, like large banks, want migration because 'adding bodies' is the only way most Western economies actually grow. So in Canada, CIBC, BMO, RBC (i.e. big banks) make their $ from mortgages and small business lending - there's no real way for them to grow other than 'more mortgages'. So they push for more bodies as part of national strategy.

Because most political entities, most big business, and a lot of social activists are globalist in nature, it creates a friction with other groups.

This friction is actually a big deal and is reshaping the political landscape in the entire Western world.

It's getting to be less about left/right than it is those with a globalist view and those with a more localist view. 'Nationalists' tend to fall in the later camp.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by perl4ever on Friday August 10, 2018 @12:27AM (#17730669)
It seems to me that immigration helps raise wages. A multinational company is going to employ people in India regardless of US immigration policy. But if those people can come to the US and make 5x the money, then even if they are making somewhat less than other Americans, they are improving (i.e. raising wages in) the global market for labor that we have to compete in.

Given that wages in India and other places are clearly artificially depressed, or people wouldn't want to come to the US, I don't think it's obvious that the multinationals do want open borders. I think it's in the interest of workers though.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by geezerjay on Friday August 10, 2018 @01:28AM (#17730909)
> But if those people can come to the US and make 5x the money, then even if they are making somewhat less than other Americans, they are improving (i.e. raising wages in) the global market for labor that we have to compete in.

I would also add that it's wrong to assume that just because an immigrant was hired for a highly skilled job that automatically means there is a native somewhere with an equivalent skillset and able to do the job as well. It boggles the mind how some people assume that somehow every single top expert in the field happens to live in the same city/state/country where a job opening is published.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by baud147258 on Friday August 10, 2018 @03:51AM (#17731443)
According to you, immigration would help raise wages globally, but since it introduces lower-paid worker in a national/local labor market, it would reduce wages at this level. And I don't think we're working in a global market for labor, the supply is too unelastic to be a market.
Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by perl4ever on Friday August 10, 2018 @11:03PM (#17738042)
"According to you, immigration would help raise wages globally, but since it introduces lower-paid worker in a national/local labor market"

The labor market is not national or local for a multinational company. Hence, as I wrote, if people are being underpaid in some countries, it is in a multinational's interest to keep them in those countries to exploit, and not let them immigrate to where they could make more money.

Re:How Globalization Has Broken the Chain of Responsibility by sonnyblarney on Friday August 10, 2018 @01:36AM (#17730952)
The vast majority of people migrating are not doing so for spectacular wages relative to the local market they are coming into.

Average wages for immigrants is lower than the non-immigrant average in almost all societies.

Because we are in high-tech, we think about 'Google' bringing in great talent, which is good ...

But for most, it's not remotely that.

In Canada, in the Oil Sands, they push for migration and the term they use is 'high labour input cost'. Literally high wages.

So yes, in the long term migration can be good depending on a nations actual need and ability to make use of people, but it's about wages and Supply and Demand there.

It's a similar story everywhere. I don't think anyone, even hardcore nationalists are pushing to get rid of bringing in talented people, the numbers are small. And the issue with H1B for example is not so much the nature of it, but that it was kind of being abused by Infosys etc. in the eyes of some.

"Given that wages in India and other places are clearly artificially depressed, or people wouldn't want to come to the US"

No, this is not any kind of 'artificial depression'. India has a fundamentally different economy than the US. Those differences are not artificial.