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Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by whatshisface on Saturday August 04, 2018 @10:38AM (#17687003)
Another question might be, how isn't it? In every other area of society, if someone is very good at arranging things to achieve some widely valued goal, we think it's OK for them to get rich. If someone is the best jailer in the world would it not be reasonable to reward them? Operating a prison is a lot of work.

The problem is that they are being rewarded for doing the wrong things, there's no problem with rewarding them in general.

Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by albertgoeswoof on Saturday August 04, 2018 @11:15AM (#17687143)
Um so if I’m a great assassin, that’s ok? Or maybe I’m a really good burglar? Perhaps I’m a really good organised crime lord? It’s a lot of work to run the mafia, I really should get a good salary right?
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by whatshisface on Saturday August 04, 2018 @11:27AM (#17687192)
If you think that jails should not exist at all, then, granted, nobody should be paid to run them. If jails should exist then presumably you can make a list of the things you would like to see in them, and whoever can best realize that list could be justly rewarded for doing it on your behalf.
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by thatcat on Saturday August 04, 2018 @11:44AM (#17687267)
You're doing economic analysis on something that is essentially political. Jailers don't get paid because they are the best, they get paid because they have government contracts - presumably they made the lowest bid for the job. They simply do the minimum to continue the contract and use their gains to lobby for legislation that will lead to more imprisonment or ways to leverage their position as jailer - like creating markets they can monopolize.
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by j88439h84 on Saturday August 04, 2018 @12:56PM (#17687562)
Supposed to be that service providers compete on cost and efficiency and quality, like anything else.
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by 1996 on Saturday August 04, 2018 @01:20PM (#17687658)
The market can not function if the government is taking decisions (or a limited numbers of companies, but they are limited in their capacity to fail by the money they have- unlike government budgets)

The market works when individual people take decisions: because there are many of them, some take risks, and they all talk to eachother.

Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by jjoonathan on Saturday August 04, 2018 @01:30PM (#17687698)
Moral hazard is thick as molasses in this situation. You are making a distinction without a difference.
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by candiodari on Saturday August 04, 2018 @02:03PM (#17687824)
Have you ever noticed how the government and the police keep attacking the poor ?

There's no more to it than that. They can attack these people for personal gain. They, in this case, of course is the government. The people that make up the law, the government, the police.

If you think this is bad, wait until you see what child services or mental care departments do to people, which is a much worse example of how governments attacks the weak and hopeless. It doesn't matter which governments. It only matters that some people get power over others.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/...

But no worries, this whole thread is discussing how we can fix this with a few more laws.

Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by news_to_me on Saturday August 04, 2018 @03:23PM (#17688110)
> It only matters that some people get power over others

I agree with this part. I disagree, however, with your implicit suggestion that fewer laws will help.

The purpose of the government is to protect people, and it's obviously failing at that in the current prison system. But simply punting the problem to the "free market" won't help either - corporations are arguably even worse offenders of exploiting unfair power dynamics.

The real answer, in my opinion, is fixing the broken power structure. After all, the government gets its power from us, and it's one of the few ways people can affect positive change.

Maybe if we all voted responsibly, prisons wouldn't have the power to exploit prisoners like this.

Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by candiodari on Sunday August 05, 2018 @04:43PM (#17693430)
The problem is that the government is little better than thieves. I don't mean that in the abstract. Look at this video :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

The video has 2 sections. First, the professor explains the reasoning behind the 5th amendment ... and then a police officer points out how he does it.

Despite that I would agree that this officer is a pretty correct cop. Certainly you cannot call this guy bad or corrupt, and equally certain: he is a pretty smart guy.

He states pretty bluntly what the goal of a police officer is, in criminal cases. You probably think the goal is to arrest the perpetrator, but listen to the guy, it's not. The goal is a confession, the goal is maximizing convictions. Seriously, that's the metric they're judged on: number of convictions. Regardless of any other factor, and frankly using highly illegal tactics (though compared to European police I must say he is a saint). On top of that he has self-control that rivals the best monks.

The average cop, I am sorry to say, is not like this guy. The average cop is much more like Kelso from "that 70s show". The average cop became a cop because he could not get another job, but got accepted in the entrance exam, or (worse) because they enjoy having power over others. Or, like Kelso, a combination of both. They're morons, dumb to the point that people who know them wouldn't leave them alone with a lighter. They're interested in proving their power over others directly by humiliating them (generally in pretty benign ways, but ... like a high school bully that isn't an 8 year old anymore). They regularly screw up badly, and they desperately want to hide those screwups, at almost any cost.

This isn't controversial: everybody who knows a few cops knows this.

Can you imagine what interrogations tactics are when the cop is NOT a 20 year old military veteran with a strong sense of honor and very good observational skills, without good self control ? Oh wait, no need to imagine, just search it on youtube. Warning: actually doing that will not be pretty. Moron police officers shooting people for completely absurd misunderstandings, in scenarios that certainly look like a strong racism, sexism, and just general bullying component is at play.

Doing the same lookups for other forces, like for instance, searching youtube for videos of the UN's "blue helmets" in action ... is far worse. European police forces ... outright disgusting.

The problem is not law. You cannot reasonably argue that the problem is that we just need a few more laws and all will be fine.

Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by jjoonathan on Sunday August 05, 2018 @08:14PM (#17694309)
Then it's a good thing that wasn't what he argued, isn't it?
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by colechristensen on Saturday August 04, 2018 @03:56PM (#17688222)
>In every other area of society, if someone is very good at arranging things to achieve some widely valued goal, we think it's OK for them to get rich.

This isn't very true. I am OK with people getting rich providing non-essential but much liked X to those with the spare resources.

I am not OK with people getting rich by rent-seeking limited essential resources or perverse incentives.

The societal goal of imprisonment should be minimizing population and cost to society. The financial goal would be maximizing population and minimizing cost to imprison. The societal and financial goals are very much in conflict.

Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by jrhurst on Saturday August 04, 2018 @10:52AM (#17687060)
"If someone is the best jailer in the world would it not be reasonable to reward them?"

I mean if we're gonna bring up this anology we've gotta figure out what a "best failer in the world" even means? What is the value the jailer creates? How do define a high performance jailer over just a nominal performant jailer? If there is no extra value produced by the best jailer in the world then we are over paying the best jailer in the world.

Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by bdcravens on Saturday August 04, 2018 @01:29PM (#17687697)
There's value in reducing recidivism and escapes. More practically, jails are understaffed, and there's tremendous political value in making Joe Public feel safer.
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by rhizome on Saturday August 04, 2018 @03:49PM (#17688196)
there's tremendous political value in making Joe Public feel safer.

On this point, without looking it up, what do you estimate the overall recidivism rate to be? Just in a general conversational sense.

Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by bdcravens on Saturday August 04, 2018 @06:58PM (#17688838)
Depends on the crime and incarceration level.
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by rhizome on Sunday August 05, 2018 @07:02PM (#17694051)
Overall.
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by whatshisface on Saturday August 04, 2018 @11:35AM (#17687226)
Every industry in the world has to address those same questions when organizing itself, although in this case the government is (and by extension we are) involved in the decisions. I would put forward cost-effectiveness and maintaining order as a couple of good qualities that prison operators should be rewarded for but I'm sure we could come up with many others.
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by mmirate on Saturday August 04, 2018 @11:39AM (#17687238)
> What is the value the jailer creates?

People don't fear being sent to the hospital over an off-color remark. Thieves don't hold honest folk at their mercy. Arsonists haven't done an exact recreation of Sherman's March, or anything similar. Serial murderers haven't killed off any non-negligible part of the population.

That's the value jailers create.

Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by ericmcer on Saturday August 04, 2018 @05:59PM (#17688600)
As soon as the monetary reward for doing well is dependent on government contracts, free market values and morals no longer apply.
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by samirillian on Saturday August 04, 2018 @01:39PM (#17687735)
> best jailer in the world.

I have a new life goal

Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by jstarfish on Saturday August 04, 2018 @02:07PM (#17687848)
You must not have ever played The Sims, if you're only now setting this goal ;)

Building dungeons and trapping villagers inside was one of the first things my daughters set out to do in Minecraft. You're facing some stiff competition.

Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by gt_ on Saturday August 04, 2018 @02:33PM (#17687947)
There is a game on Steam called ‘Prison Architect’. I don’t know much else about it but it appears to be a fitting name.
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by extralego on Saturday August 04, 2018 @11:27AM (#17687193)
Wow, are you serious?
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by mmirate on Saturday August 04, 2018 @11:33AM (#17687217)
> wrong things

Says who? How does anyone make that kind of value judgment?

Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by Sharlin on Saturday August 04, 2018 @12:54PM (#17687553)
How does anyone make any kind of value judgment?
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by mmirate on Saturday August 04, 2018 @03:50PM (#17688198)
If something's more value-able to someone than to its current owner, then there will exist a mutually agreeable price at which that someone will be able purchase that something. Beyond that...?
Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by Sharlin on Saturday August 04, 2018 @03:59PM (#17688230)
I don’t think that’s the sort of value that’s relevant here.

Here’s a value judgment for you: rent-seeking is evil.

Re:How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an... by mmirate on Saturday August 04, 2018 @04:17PM (#17688281)
It's unproductive and inefficient compared to any alternative, but calling it "evil" requires that the result be a monopoly power, and the only monopolies in the scenario here are the government itself and any exclusive contracts it may grant to private entities. These are evil, I'll agree.

But in other circumstances, the more general forms of rent-seeking can be a way to re-internalize an externality (e.g. a quantum of atmosphere that a factory could pollute), and is thereby critical to preventing "tragedy-of-the-commons"-style scenarios without violence such as rationing.

Don't you want to be able to protect the environment better than the EPA's incompetence and corruption could possibly hope to?