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Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by jstarfish on Friday August 03, 2018 @09:24PM (#17684881)
I think you're shooting yourself in the foot looking for 'web developer' jobs in the homeland of hipsters. Of course all the postings are going to be for trendy technologies.

Look for more boring jobs that require web development skills, unless you're really stuck on the title.

You know PHP. I did too, once. I made the mistake of taking on a Magento project a decade ago, suffered through it, and I still get hounded by recruiters desperate for PHP developers who know Magento. That fucking platform still powers 99% of the entire e-commerce space; version 2 was released recently and by many accounts it's even worse than v1, which means people who made the mistake of using it are going to need support for it. The demand for PHP developers is still very much there.

You know Python. You can get jobs knowing just that. There are lots of relaxed junior-level *-analyst positions in many domains requiring nothing more than scripting skills and a brain, which you clearly have. I see job postings all the time looking for Django devs. Lots of businesses need reporting-type stuff done, business analytics, ETL, that sort of stuff. Shady businesses always want web scrapers written.

With 10+ years in web development, you might also want to take a shot at jobs involving web application security-- either securing or breaking it.

Just to put it in perspective-- my job title has nothing to do with web development, yet it is an incidentally significant portion of what I do. Best job of my life, and I never would have found it looking for "web developer" jobs, since that's not what they thought they needed when they hired me.

Crawl LinkedIn, not Craigslist. All you'll get from Craigslist are couches, crabs, and people who want you to build out scalable PCI-compliant e-commerce solutions with a full complement of product photography for their hobby business for $500, payable upon delivery. And when they sense your desperation, they'll withhold even that until you go away.

Best of luck to you.

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by t3hprofit on Saturday August 04, 2018 @02:10AM (#17685619)
This. Don't follow the advice of "Learn {X} new technology". In this day and age, a new language, framework, etc show up every 3 minutes. You may be a bit rusty, but stick to what you know for now. Maybe start a blog about your situation and what you're doing to get back in the game. There are definitely jobs out there that need your skills. Job hunting is usually a numbers game, so keep sending out resumes.
Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by frontout on Saturday August 04, 2018 @11:01AM (#17687083)
I think this is bad advice, many if not most of the frontend jobs right now ask for React, which means that a lot of future legacy code also will be React code. More importantly, it shows you're ready to adapt to "new" technology. With PHP, all you have is legacy.

Think about it, if two or more applicants have experience, but one also has experience in the exact technology already used at the place, that person is ahead in the game.

I frankly would keep quiet about the personal situation, I think everybody understands if you do. He's not looking for charity because he's homeless, he wants a job because he's a professional developer.

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by yayana on Saturday August 04, 2018 @04:05PM (#17688252)
If your experience is python and php then you should look at how one of them has progressed and maybe consider a job that has some use for JavaScript for future marketability..

The idea that you should learn modern JS and then react to apply for react jobs with no real world experience is a bad one for someone with work history in 2 languages that are in the top 10.. Particularly if they are in a rather desperate situation.

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by frontout on Sunday August 05, 2018 @03:43PM (#17693095)
To quote the OP:

"I have extensive front end experience with Javascript as well."

"No one is really looking for a PHP developer right now. And all the front end jobs want React/Redux experience or Angular."

So, not learning React doesn't seem like a good call unless he wants to stay in the backend. No matter what he will be learning now, he will not have "real world experience" with it. All he can do between jobs is learn. What's your advice exactly? What does "looking at how Python has progressed" even mean?

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by yayana on Sunday August 05, 2018 @06:00PM (#17693786)
> What does "looking at how Python has progressed" even mean?

Take an existing project you wrote in python and modernize it for newer style, maybe it was in legacy 2.X for compatibility with something and needs to be updated. Maybe convert to a python framework that is popular now (there's not so much churn in python so a past framework might just be updated.)

I'm sorry that isn't as dramatic as taking some knowledge of past JavaScript, learning additions that introduce a different paradigm and then an entire new style of development complete with transpiling and maybe typescript.. and then trying to keep it running with churn in the whole bunch of libraries and tools that are in that bizarre front end process.. While not seeming to have any previous experience with compiled languages and related development processes.

Taking a past project and modernizing it allows you to mix discussion of real world experience with your understanding of new things. Where things are just updates you blur perception and significance of the age of your real world experiences.

But switching completely to patterns, code and development processes you have never used before even by analogy is taking that to the most tenuous extreme..

Who knows maybe the OP's past JS experience was in SPAs in a functional style using node tools and an IDE and react is almost reasonable.. But that seems unlikely if python and php were the first languages the OP thinks of.

It makes more sense to milk and refresh past connections to Python to find a new subfield than to try to stay in web development by switching to JS (if it was your 3rd language from 3 years ago) to move from Backend to frontend in the months right before almost every language will get an opportunity on the frontend..

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by wyclif on Saturday August 04, 2018 @07:10PM (#17688878)
With PHP, all you have is legacy

This is not true. I think you'll find a lot of new projects being written in PHP 7.2 and/or using some newer framework, like Laravel.

There is nothing wrong with getting PHP work. PHP is not going away anytime soon, and the language has improved a lot since 5.6.

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by frontout on Sunday August 05, 2018 @03:45PM (#17693110)
Your mileage may vary, but PHP is on its way out and no matter how it "improved", its reputation really hasn't. People starting new projects means nothing if there's no traction for jobs.
Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by wyclif on Monday August 06, 2018 @07:27AM (#17696726)
It's absolutely not true that there's no traction with PHP, even if we grant that PHP is "on its way out"! That kind of comment shows how out of touch you are. As for PHP's "reputation", a lot of that is legacy from 4.x days. But when was that? Oh yeah, that was the early 2000's. I'll say it again: if you look at PHP today I think you're going to see that things have improved dramatically. Just ask Facebook...
Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by rocketpastsix on Sunday August 05, 2018 @08:57PM (#17694463)
lol no its not.
Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by steve_taylor on Saturday August 04, 2018 @02:56AM (#17685728)
React was released five years ago and has been the dominant front end framework for most of that time, including right now.
Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by yayana on Saturday August 04, 2018 @07:48AM (#17686475)
Dominant in developer/framework Mindshare for five years.. Damn hard to find a company actually using it in many markets for most of that time. At first it was not all that different from node's leadership of frontend thinking, except that it could be used in the browser..

For a past python developer, trying out something like Django a bit with converting a past project would be less work than react for a js developer and probably a good refresher.

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by jomkr on Saturday August 04, 2018 @08:36AM (#17686623)
Do Facebook not use it?
Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by yayana on Saturday August 04, 2018 @08:41AM (#17686639)
Is that relevant to my comment?
Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by throwaway080383 on Saturday August 04, 2018 @07:03PM (#17688853)
I believe it is relevant to the part where you said it's damn hard to find a company using it.
Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by yayana on Saturday August 04, 2018 @09:15PM (#17689201)
Given that I see nothing for "react" on jobs.facebook.com listed by Facebook for my job market, I still don't see how Facebook could be relevant to that part.

But, if Facebook actually hires react engineers everywhere and just doesn't like their own job platform, then they probably hire php engineers everywhere as php is the platform they are the most famous for sinking money into modernizing.. So again, I'm left to wonder why anyone who already knows php would be told to learn react before looking for a job.

It's a lot like always being told to learn Ruby on Rails a few years back even if you knew nothing at all about ruby. I wonder where all those ruby illiterate RoR engineers ended up.

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by throwaway080383 on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @03:19PM (#17709687)
First Google result for "Facebook Front End Engineer" yields a job description with React as a Preferred Qualification: https://www.facebook.com/careers/jobs/a0I1H00000LCKeYUAX

Granted, I don't know your market, but if it's outside the typical 5-10 cities, that might be the problem.

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by yayana on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @06:30PM (#17711474)
> typical 5-10 cities

Ok, so let's assume Facebook is hiring today and for the last 5 years in 10 job markets.

Damn hard to find a company actually using it in many markets for most of that time.

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by muzani on Saturday August 04, 2018 @02:49AM (#17685711)
Agreed. There's a lot of good frameworks on PHP. There might be less work to develop PHP websites from scratch, but more that involves maintaining an existing system.

The unpopularity of PHP actually means there are more PHP jobs emerging. Nobody wants to swap out of a functional old system, but the younger folk are going to go after new, sexy, technologies.

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by raziel2p on Saturday August 04, 2018 @08:32AM (#17686613)
Even ignoring the legacy systems (Wordpress, Magento...), PHP has made massive improvements compared to other old languages like Python or Ruby. The language features, performance improvements, frameworks and libraries available today makes it 10 times better as a language than 10 years ago.
Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by lowercased on Saturday August 04, 2018 @09:54AM (#17686850)
Agreed.

In 2007/2008, I'd been doing PHP for 11ish years; started in early 96 with PHP/FI, with vb & notes in the early 90s before that. I kept doing some PHP, but moved primarily to spring/java (via grails). enjoyable, learned a lot, but it always felt clunky and convoluted (I never became as proficient as I wanted in that stack). After several years, I 'came back' to the PHP world. A lot of the early warts/problems were still there, but you could avoid them more or less entirely if you chose to build with the new crop of composer packages and psr-compatible frameworks.

The speed of PHP7+ is comparatively amazing (which, arguably, shows how 'slow' it was before!). PHP 5.6 (2014) was roughly twice as fast as PHP 5.3 (2009). PHP 7.2 (2017) is roughly 2-3x faster than PHP 5.6. In the 8+ years I 'left' PHP (was still using it, just not as primary day to day), the performance doubled, then doubled again. Still not as fast as 'pure' java/c/whatever, but incredible improvements all the same. Given that the majority of my dev work involves a lot of 'line of business' stuff with a SQL database as a central piece, db queries are almost always the biggest performance issue, the relative speed of PHP vs other stacks was even less of an issue for my real world scenarios.

Upcoming experimental JIT stuff looks to make an even bigger improvement in some areas.

Some comparisons were from memory, some from https://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/493-php-performance-evo...

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by spdionis on Sunday August 05, 2018 @08:01AM (#17690892)
Also remember that PHP is not even competing with java/c. PHP's niche is shared with python/ruby and partially nodejs. I would say PHP blows out of the water all those 3 in backend web dev.
Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by ccajas on Saturday August 04, 2018 @03:57PM (#17688224)
Oh boy, I've been there with the Craiglist delusionals that you described. He didn't even bother to name the business that he was trying to get built. If he can't do that, he can't be that serious about starting. They state "passion" but no sir, if you don't know how to LLC or register a name, passion is not a substitute for having a clue on what you're doing.
Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by remoteorbust on Saturday August 04, 2018 @01:13PM (#17687621)
I agree with Craigslist. It's a cesspool. The paradox of freelance is that generally people treat you better and have more reasonable expectations if they are paying you more.
Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by spdionis on Sunday August 05, 2018 @08:05AM (#17690904)
> generally people treat you better and have more reasonable expectations if they are paying you more

This is true in most settings, from office jobs to the service industry.

Always good to remind yourself that usually professional respect comes from your salary, not the other way around.

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by ryan-allen on Saturday August 04, 2018 @01:21AM (#17685493)
I think this is good advice. There is loads of work in PHP that require his kinds of skills. You might not go to the local ECMAScript meet up and do a talk about it but it's gainful employment and there ain't nothing wrong with that.

I share office space with a company that does SME consulting work and they do heaps of Magento, Wordpress and the like. Everyone's getting paid and nobody is complaining.

Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by paulie_a on Saturday August 04, 2018 @08:57AM (#17686694)
Good advice, but honestly I disagree regarding LinkedIn, it's a waste of time. The job listings are junk in my experience. It's for HR to pointlessly spam people.
Re:Ask HN: How to get web development career on track from b... by daetnyr on Saturday August 04, 2018 @12:37PM (#17687488)
It’s good to get connected with recruiters who have connections and positions to fill. Having a recruiter on your side does not hurt.