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Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by pnloyd on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @03:09PM (#17656099)
The article says those are just demo prices to test customer's reactions, and then goes on to say those prices reflect 1.70$ per mile, comparable to uber and lift, but that an analyst said they could afford to go as low as 70 cents per a mile now, and 35 cents per a mile by 2020. If that's true and materialize, WOW!
Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by rat_1234 on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @03:26PM (#17656254)
I totally believe it.

If you've ever taken a taxi in a market like South Africa, China, or Chile, it's so cheap it's insane. Almost unbelievable.

In many cases the cars are more or less the same, the gas costs more or less the same, so the only variable that's different is the cost of labor which Waymo eliminates.

Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by shkkmo on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:29PM (#17657860)
Most of those cars are much older and have much lower maintenance labor costs as well. I fully expect self driving cars to remain more expensive than taxis in many of the countries I've visited.
Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by rat_1234 on Wednesday August 01, 2018 @10:33AM (#17662803)
Oh well sure I do as well. All they have to do is be less expensive than what Uber can deliver enough to get people over any concerns with technology and they're good.

My point is really that Waymo is eliminating what is unquestionably the highest marginal cost component of a ride.

Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by neaden on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @03:39PM (#17656364)
I'm surprised by this, 35 cents is less than the IRS deduction for mileage at about 55 cents a mile which is supposed to represent depreciation and direct expenses, how would they get so much lower?
Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by organsnyder on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @04:17PM (#17656696)
The vehicles could potentially in service almost 24/7, limited only by charging and maintenance time. Electric vehicles are incredibly cheap to maintain—electric motors have many fewer moving parts, regen braking means little wear on brake pads, etc. The batteries last a surprisingly long time (the batteries are managed to be kept between 20-80% for longevity).

I own a Pacifica PHEV, so I can come up with some numbers there: it has a 32-mile electric range off of roughly 13 kwh of charge. So, at 10¢/kwh, you're at about 4¢/mile for electricity. The vehicle can be charged from empty in two hours (on a level-two charger); so if you assume roughly 30 MPH average speed, the vehicle can be on the road ~1/3 of the time. So, assuming 240 miles per day * 365, you're at 87,600 miles per year. Assuming five years of vehicle life (not a stretch for this vehicle, especially in electric mode), you're at 438k miles out of a $50,000 vehicle; you'll probably need a new battery at 200k miles or so, so throw in $10k for that. So we're at ~14¢/mile for depreciation and battery replacement. Now we're at 24¢/mile—double it to factor in other maintenance (tires, cleaning, suspension, etc.), insurance, and to account for my likely optimistic usage pattern. We're still under 48¢/mile.

Keep in mind that this is for a massive seven-seat PHEV minivan. With a smaller, pure-electric vehicle (hybrid really isn't needed for this use-case), you're getting longer range and better mileage. Bump up the charge speed (level 3 charging is much faster than level 2), and you can probably get your run:charge ratio above 1:1.

Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by ucaetano on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @04:14PM (#17656669)
The 55 cents a mile is for an "average" car, with "average" mileage driven an "average" number of miles per year. The problem is that cars don't depreciate just on mileage, but on age too.

So dramatically increasing the number of miles you drive per year reduces the actual total cost per mile. Using fleet management services and having deals directly with the manufacturer, as well as buying in bulk will generate huge savings, particularly since you almost wipe out the dealer fee.

Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by TangoTrotFox on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @03:54PM (#17656497)
While I think we can only speculate on exactly what Waymo is doing, in general driverless taxis should be able to be operated for even less per mile than it would cost if you purchased a vehicle yourself. The reason is economies of scale along with the potential for vertical integration. There are pretty big margins in most things related to vehicles from parts to maintenance to repairs. Economy of scale can bring those much closer to 0, and vertical integration can bring them literally to 0.

This is why I think driverless taxis will be much bigger than many people expect, but also why this industry is going to get monopolized like none other. Bigger players will be able to get taxis to you faster, offer them cheaper, and still show bigger profit margins than smaller players. And without scaling labor costs... whoever wins this industry is going to be making a completely ridiculous amount of money. Consider that in 2016 3.2 trillion miles were driven in the US alone. 10% of those miles is 320 billion. A profit margin of a nickle above operating costs is a net of $16 billion. That's at operating on a nickle per mile, with 10% of 2016's mileage, in a single country.

On the other hand I expect all the players will realize this, so we should see and benefit from some insane competition as long as the market remains relatively free.

Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by tomerico on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @04:14PM (#17656670)
I actually see this market much harder to protect (assuming self driving becomes a solved problem).

With Uber, as it is today, you have the strong forces of a network effect (where drivers are stuck because the passengers are there, and the passengers are stuck because the drivers are there). This effect is historically very difficult to break, a canonical example would be craigslist.

While rolling out self driving cars, simply requires money. If for example, San Francisco has 1000 Uber drivers active at any time today, all you need is to roll out 1000 cars yourself in the city, and the service you provide is equivalent to Uber.

In other words, if self driving technology becomes common, the market is going to be commoditized to the point where there is very little profit margin for any player (such as in the airline industry).

Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by kjksf on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @04:47PM (#17656955)
Market dynamics demonstrated in other commodity businesses say otherwise.

In a commodity market you win with combination of price and brand.

When it comes to price, a player with a fleet of a million cars can wage a pricing war for longer than a player with a fleet of 10 thousand cars because economies of scale mean that it costs them less, per car, to provide the service.

If this is a new entrant, the incumbents also have an accumulated war chest from past revenues they can use to outprice the competition.

And they also have more money to out-advertise the new guy. GM spends $3 billion a year on advertising which is why, not counting Tesla, the youngest surviving car company was founded in 1925.

It's also why Kellog dominates in cornflake space, coca-cola in soda business etc.

Which is why there will be a mad rush to grab the market share early on. Once someone reaches significant scale, it'll be virtually impossible to catch up with them.

Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by repsilat on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @04:35PM (#17656847)
> network effect

It's not so bad (or maybe wouldn't be if cars themselves weren't so expensive.)

Assuming some even distribution of avaialable vehicles in an area, time-to-pickup scales like (area/vehicles), so the returns to scale diminish fairly quickly.

And "evenly spaced vehicles" might be the worst case depending on user preferences. It might be better to have fast pickups in some places and really slow pickups in others than average times everywhere, so long as users know the pattern -- slow from my house, fast from my work etc.

Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by jdeibele on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @05:19PM (#17657258)
I would expect brand to be important. Do you want to be in a Waymo with no accidents, a Tesla that kills the passenger occasionally, or an Uber that kills other people?

There are people who only buy Volvos because of the reputation for safety they've built up.

Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by cbhl on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @05:44PM (#17657500)
"Items such as depreciation or lease payments, maintenance and repairs, tires, gasoline (including all taxes thereon), oil, insurance, and license and registration fees are included in fixed and variable costs for [the business standard mileage rate]." https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rp-10-51.pdf

I'm guessing 35 cents is a bottom-up estimate that is just the marginal cost of gasoline (and maybe maintenance).

That said, if self-driving cars actually produce the expected reduction in collisions, then I would expect (self-)insurance and repair costs to go way down for self-driving cars versus human-driven cars.

Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by pnloyd on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @03:44PM (#17656402)
My guess is by designing small electric cars specifically for this service. You could do away with most of the amenities conventional cars have and purely focus on making them cheap and easy to manufacture.
Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by neaden on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @03:54PM (#17656494)
Maybe someday, but not by 2020 surely? They are still going to be using hybrids then I assume.
Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by Fricken on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @04:34PM (#17656838)
They should have some of the all electric 20k Jaguar Ipaces they've ordered operational by then.
Re:Waymo's Self-Driving Cars Are Near: Meet a Teen Who Rides... by patrickg_zill on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @04:11PM (#17656649)
I always made money from the deduction because I was driving a lot. I would guess that a Waymo car would be driven a lot also.