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Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by gtt on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @06:55AM (#17599799)
Honest question: Why don't they just adopt bitcoin and stop this madness?
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by nutjob2 on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:01AM (#17599834)
"Venezuela’s inflation will skyrocket to 1 million percent by the end of the year as the government continues to print money to cover a growing budget hole, the International Monetary Fund predicted on Monday."

If you're not talking about the government, who obviously like printing money, then the issue is that people are paid in the local currency and have no choice and shops may be forced to accept it. The black market has long ago dealt in USD. Bitcoin doesn't help anyone since people don't have enough money to eat, let alone buy computers or mobile phones. Also Bitcoin is not a hard, ie stable, currency.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by brownbat on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:41AM (#17600068)
> Bitcoin doesn't help anyone since people don't have enough money to eat, let alone buy computers or mobile phones.

It's not at US levels, but many already have mobile phones:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_smartph...

Really though, many Venezuelans have turned to crypto. There are more sales in Venezuela than in China according to localbitcoins data, and a lot of them are buying mining equipment because energy is still heavily subsidized:

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2018/04/03/...

The question was originally buried but one of its premises is really good: to the extent bitcoin has some utility eventually, it's about putting a floor on gross macroeconomic malpractice like in Zimbabwe or Venezuela. It can give people a currency to flee to in emergencies. One that is easier to get and store and harder to seize than dollars.

The real question is why aren't even more Venezuelans using it. Whatever is preventing mass adoption in a crisis should be what cryptocurrency experiments should probably focus on, and most probably involve tradeoffs with crypto idealism. Things like:

1. Value stability. Maybe you can get that with more competing tethers.

2. Predictable and low transaction costs. Maybe let ideal clearing rates, target tx per min, affect round length.

3. More usable, but trustworthy implementations. Ie, dead simple, never see any keys. Bitcoin needs whatever Dropbox did to rsync.

4. Better options to do off chain transactions without deposits for counterparties where you have some trust, or know you can go back to that shop or person if they double spend.

5. Some system of revocation for the most extreme and undisputed fraud or thefts.

6. Wallet penetration. How cheap can a specialized wallet device or phone with an app get?

Some of those would irritate bitcoin purists, but they are the things that make people trust your system.

Some cryptocurrency will probably offer those things at some point and fall on its face just to prove me wrong, we'll see.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:45AM (#17600094)
> many Venezuelans have turned to crypto

Who do you think has access to lots of subsidized electricity and hard currency with which to buy mining equipment?

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by brownbat on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:50AM (#17600124)
> Who do you think has access to lots of subsidized electricity...

It's a great question, and an incredibly quick reply!

I would like some time to consider it carefully, but recommended you check out the article I originally linked which includes more details in the meantime.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:58AM (#17600187)
It’s the cronies. They get first dibs on the hard currency exports produce. They also control the power infrastructure.
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by gtt on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:19AM (#17599951)
Is not that they don't have money to eat, they don't have enough food to eat. As I see it, at the hear of the issue is broken economics. Sound money, like bitcoin, could be a great solution to several problems of economics of Venezuela.
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:28AM (#17600000)
> bitcoin, could be a great solution to several problems of economics of Venezuela

Bitcoin's volatility is the opposite of what Venezuela needs. About the only proven solution for hyperinflating countries with poor institutions is a currency board [1]. You peg the local currency 1:1 to an external currency. If that doesn't work, you switch to a hard currency.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_board

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by isostatic on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @08:01AM (#17600213)
Indeed. Stable currencies, USD, EUR, CHF, JPY, GBP (even with brexit)

Many other currencies are also stable - the NZD for example, but I suspect (with no proof either way) a large change in their use may cause issues.

Typically USD is chosen, as that is the international currency of oil. EUR is I think second, mainly for political reasons.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by dantudor on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:16AM (#17599922)
USDT is stable and much easier to move across the border into the country than USD itself
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by jmanderley on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:19AM (#17599947)
Even if we assume Tether to remain stable, that doesn't solve the fundamental problem of even getting someone to buy local currency in exchange for fake Dollars.
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by zaarn on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @06:59AM (#17599821)
Can Bitcoin handle the entirety of the Venezuelian Economy right at this moment down to every single cup of coffee and roll of toilet paper?

If the answer to that question is anything but yes, I doubt adopting bitcoin at all will help.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by vntok on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:20AM (#17599954)
To be clear, the answer to that question is obviously a resounding 'no'.
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by gtt on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:23AM (#17599970)
We decompose the problem and some smaller problems one by one. All large enough transactions could be settled with bitcoin. Which means industry could start to operations again.

People who don't what to follow this tried and true approach of solving smaller problems usually don't want problem to be solved at all.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by GenericsMotors on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @08:38AM (#17600429)
Or they could just use the dollar, or even the currency from one of their close neighbours that hasn't gone belly up.

Transaction fees for bitcoin rose to what, 50-ish USD during the December madness? (when the network was saturated).

Just imagine the network congestion if all of Venezuella's business start using bitcoin to settle their transactions, even if they're batched into large amounts. No way 7 tx/s is enough.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by zaarn on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:42AM (#17600077)
The industry cannot work without paying the workers and the workers won't accept pay they can't use to get a coffee.
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by gtt on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @10:22AM (#17601245)
Yes, but they can buy food and housing in bulk with bitcoin easily, so this is way better than they have it now.

Worrying about coffee seems unrealistic, "let them have a cake"-like thinking.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by zaarn on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @10:44AM (#17601453)
Not really. Buying Food and Housing works in the current currency too, through inflation it's even enforced. If you don't buy it now your money is worthless.

And buying coffee is just an example for small transactions that most people rely on, people want to do small penny transactions all the time to buy food not in bulk but as they need it. Buying in bulk is usually bad not only because it's happening due to the failing economy but also because it leads to more spoilage and rotten food being thrown away. That's bad for the environment.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by Tomte on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:40AM (#17600062)
Industry cannot work in huge transactions alone.

They also need pencils, toilet paper or the odd USB cable.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by sebleon on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @06:58AM (#17599819)
Venezuelan government wants to maintain control over money creation (and print as needed). They actually came out with their own cryptocurrency, the Petro, which is backed by national oil reserves.
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:18AM (#17599940)
> Why don't they just adopt bitcoin

It's easier to barter or use hard currency. When you're at 1 million percent inflation, you don't want to have to rely on having electricity and network access to buy food. Moreover, pitching people on a new currency in the midst of a currency collapse is an uphill battle.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by brainwad on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:10AM (#17599895)
The government pays state employees in bolivar, not bitcoin. Probably because the government doesn't have any bitcoin to pay workers with.
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by rcxdude on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:09AM (#17599891)
AFAIK some Venezuelans are. But the country's infrastructure is not exactly in the greatest of shapes to support actually using it.
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by paulddraper on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @10:12AM (#17601158)
Ah Bitcoin, the stable currency. /s

A far more realistic approach is to adopt another country's stable currency (e.g. US dollar).

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by oleganza on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @12:54PM (#17602821)
It's mostly unstable up. Virtually anyone who holds Bitcoin over 1 year sees their savings not lose value, often with a good upshot, unlike _every_ currency in the world.
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by paulddraper on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @01:06PM (#17602958)
(1) BTC does not always go up. It suffered 100% inflation during 2014.

(2) Even if its value "unstable upwards", rapid deflation of currency is just as harmful as rapid inflation.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by oleganza on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @02:59PM (#17603934)
(1) BTC _always_ goes up. It did not annihilate after 4 giant bubbles with dramatic corrections. Only people with strong irrational denial who finally buy during the maximum frenzy have to wait a couple of years to return to black. Everyone else has to wait much shorter and then hold with a peace of mind.

(2) It is not harmful to people going long with their own money, but it is a huge risk to margin traders (both those going short and long, but on a loaned capital). But this is a positive thing because that's how you get the sound money bootstrapped: by incentivizing long-term holding and disincentivizing wild speculation.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by paulddraper on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @06:17PM (#17605413)
> It is not harmful to people going long with their own money, but it is a huge risk to margin traders

Yes, appreciation on assets is great for owners.

But when talking about currencies (i.e. standard medium of exchange), it is the overwhelming consensus that deflation -- especially rapid deflation -- is harmful to an economy. The Great Depression being the most dramatic example of a deflationary spiral.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation#Effects

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by oleganza on Wednesday July 25, 2018 @06:28AM (#17608190)
So you are saying, fractional reserve, paper money indistinguishable from IOUs and subsequent credit expansion blessed and coordinated at the federal level (with creation of the Fed) are totally not among the reasons that caused market distortion and subsequent collapse?
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by pjc50 on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:24AM (#17599978)
Realistically, they've already adopted the dollar.

Are the regular international credit card systems still working in Venezuela?

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by krapht on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @06:58AM (#17599817)
Who is "they"?
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by carlmr on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:00AM (#17599829)
From the headline I'd say Venezuela seems a good candidate.

However this ignores the reality that they can already not buy any useful amount of bitcoins with their currency and mining is unrealistic.

Maybe some altcoin might work, but then a lot of vendors would need to switch as well.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by simias on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:09AM (#17599890)
The government of Venezuela has no reason to replace a currency they control with one they don't. Switching to cryptocurrencies will definitely not solve the many systemic issues in Venezuela so the government would still end up with a broken economy and on top of that they wouldn't control the currency anymore. That doesn't make sense. Switching to bitcoin won't make the Brent price go up.

The people could individually decide to switch to cryptocurrencies (or dollars, euros, bottle caps etc...) and get others to accept it but then you have the problem of purchasing this currency in the first place and it still doesn't solve the underlying issue of the broken Venezuelan economy. You could be a bitcoin billionaire in Caracas right now, if the shop doesn't sell toilet paper then it doesn't sell toilet paper. On the other hand if you have bolivar bills...

It's not the bolivar that's broken, it's the Venezuelan economy. This ridiculous inflation is a symptom.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by gtt on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @10:20AM (#17601229)
If they cannot control currency, may be they should give up this control?
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by Shivetya on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:12AM (#17599902)
It would fail for the same reason the economy has already failed. The government does not respect the private property rights of individuals or businesses. As such any attempt to generate wealth ends when someone in power decides to take it.

When governments fail to protect the private property rights of their citizens, be it physical property, financial investments and savings, to the income they earn, poverty will result for the majority.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by jmanderley on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:22AM (#17599967)
Observably also when they protect the private property rights of their citizens too much.
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by simias on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:21AM (#17599958)
The economy failed because it was completely dependent on oil. When the oil price went down the economy went bust. It's only at this point that the socialist politics failed the people by not making the drastic and painful cuts that would've kept the country afloat.

Lack of protection for the private property probably didn't help but making that the main cause for the Venezuelan collapse is a very ideological stance to have IMO. Insert here the obligatory "look at china" counter-example.

As far as I can tell the only way to really avoid this catastrophe would've been to diversify the Venezuelan economy in decades past (something Chavez promised to do but didn't) but nobody did it, regardless of political affiliation. "Free money coming straight from the ground" is just so much easier for a politician than making a complex and potentially impopular long term economic reform.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by phyller on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @08:13AM (#17600285)
China is not a great counter example. Chavez actually did things to redistribute wealth, and when certain goods got too expensive they fixed prices, and when the businesses failed or refused to operate at a loss they were nationalized.

China has a state plan and they invest in businesses. That means they provide resources to businesses instead of taking them away. Maybe that sounds like just better implemented socialism. Or maybe it's just literal capitalism on a scale never before seen. Think about it. What does the government of China provide to its citizens? If you are poor in China, will the government take care of you? No. It might provide you with a job, though. The USA is more socialist than China, the government will provide food, housing and even medical care for you and your children. You cannot be refused from an emergency room because you cannot pay. A few extremely wealthy people run China, and make decisions that are in their best interests. They invest their capital to get returns. Sounds like capitalism to me.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by simias on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @08:31AM (#17600397)
To be clear I wasn't stating that the situation in China is equivalent in any way to that of Venezuela, I just felt it was a bit strange to root the current woes of Venezuela solely on lack of free market basically. It probably doesn't help but what killed Venezuela in the end is their complete reliance on oil money and complete lack of plan B when it crashed.

I'm pretty certain that if the right had been in charge when the crisis happened things would've played out mostly the same (I don't believe for a second that the right would have better diversified the economy for the same reason that the socialists didn't, nobody says no to free money), the main difference being that they would have cut all the benefits to the poor immediately to cushion the fall a bit and they'd have let papa USA bail them out in exchange for a de-facto feudalization of their economy. I agree that it would probably have turned better for the Venezuelan people (at least in the short term) but socialism vs. capitalism is not really the cause of the crash, it's more about the recovery or lack thereof. If the petrol infusion had kept going I'm sure people would be chanting Dear Leader's name in the streets, whoever that would be.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by phyller on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @09:45AM (#17600919)
Oil is not too far from the all time highs, it's certainly much higher than when Chavez took over. Why isn't everything better? They killed basic market economics, including (especially) in the oil industry. They made it so people are afraid to invest in business in Venezuela. They didn't want to admit that their policies were killing the economy, so they doubled down which just made it worse.
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by jxub on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:17AM (#17599927)
Yes, other altcoins like Nano with 0 fees are increasingly being adopted, hope they help with the problem.
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by jmanderley on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:21AM (#17599960)
"Increasingly being adopted" where?
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by rawTruthHurts on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @09:30AM (#17600788)
From the post title: "Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent"

If I'm correct, I'd say "they" refers to "Venezuelans", that is, the inhabitants of Venezuela.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by shitgoose on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:10AM (#17599893)
they have adopted dollars already. seems good enough.
Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by mrweasel on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @08:43AM (#17600461)
In many ways it's actually better. It's just different banknotes and potentially coins. You don't need to change the way you do business, like you would with Bitcoin and people don't necessarily understand Bitcoin.

People may not like it, but the US dollar is a stable currency, it's reasonably well managed and importantly the Venezuelan government can do anything weird with it.

Most crypto coins aren't as unstable as the Venezuelan currency, but still much less stable than the US dollar or Euros, so it's not actually that attractive as an alternative.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by blauditore on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:03AM (#17599853)
I guess lack of knowledge and infrastructure. Cryptocurrency requires computers and internet connection whenever you want to make a deal, participants should know how to operate those things.

Otherwise, despite its shortcomings, it would be kind of a god-sent in this kind of situation. However, I'm sure the government would try to prevent wide adoption.

Re:Venezuela's Inflation to Reach 1M Percent by jmanderley on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:21AM (#17599959)
Crypto isn't the solution to every problem.