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Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by luizfzs on Monday July 23, 2018 @01:05PM (#17594068)
I have a master's degree and I learned early that getting a PhD was not for me. The way things worked at the university made me not stand to be in that environment anymore. This thing that is ridiculous in my opinion is that the advisor would say: "there is this conference coming and we will send a manuscript. We can try this and that to see if it is publishable.". Why the hell should I research for publishing? One should get the results AND THEN publish it.

The experience with academia was very toxic, although I know people who have experienced worse than that, with addition to advisors' ego disputes affecting grad students.

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by neuromantik8086 on Monday July 23, 2018 @01:18PM (#17594172)
Most incoming grad students enter PhD programs with incorrect assumptions about how grad school works. A decent number of those incorrect assumptions involve the grad student role itself. For instance, I knew of a research assistant headed to grad school who was thrilled because he/she liked to learn in classroom environments, which is only a very small part of what grad school is at best (although coming out of undergrad, you might assume that it's a bigger part of a PhD than it is).

All prospective grad students should read over the following to understand what they're truly getting into / developing realistic expectations before committing a substantial amount of their life to the Ivory Tower. The first link covers toxicity in academia (YMMV), which is more or less what drove me out of lab work and into IT. I personally chose to remain working in academia because I find it meaningful, but in a role that was more insulated from academic politics (vs generic work politics).

[0] http://academiaiskillingmyfriends.tumblr.com/

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Getting-What-You-Came-Students/dp/037...

[2] http://100rsns.blogspot.com/

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by geebee on Monday July 23, 2018 @01:39PM (#17594342)
I think that "Graduate School in the Humanities - Just Don't Go" is a gem of an essay, because it does a good job explaining why students still enter these programs when the data screams out that they shouldn't.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Graduate-School-in-the/448...

One thing that is often overlooked is that the US does have a very restrictive immigration system for people who don't have relatives here and can't leverage family reunification. In this case, getting advanced STEM degrees provides a path towards residency, work rights, and perhaps eventually a green card or citizenship. So in the US, these folks wouldn't be looking at a choice between getting a PhD and becoming a florist, because it would be illegal to come here and work as a florist. But there's a "shortage" of people getting PhDs in STEM fields, so we allow people to come here under conditions of limited personal freedom provided they agree to work these positions.

This power on the part of universities (the power to bestow residency and limited work right), I think, is one of the reasons STEM PhD programs haven't collapsed or faced the reckoning that would force them to change.

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by amyjess on Monday July 23, 2018 @02:16PM (#17594616)
> In this case, getting advanced STEM degrees provides a path towards residency, work rights, and perhaps eventually a green card or citizenship.

At my very first job, nearly all of my coworkers were Indian. As I met more people at work and started adding them on LinkedIn, I noticed one thing in common with all their LinkedIn profiles: they all got their bachelor's in India and their master's in the US.

One day, I was riding either to or from a company lunch with a coworker, and we started talking about our lives. He asks me about my education, and when I told him I only did my undergrad and never went to grad school, he told me that in his case, he had to go to school here as a condition of getting into this country, and since he already had a bachelors in CS, he went for a master's in CS.

This was before I learned how fucked-up our immigration system is. Once I learned that, his words made so much more sense.

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by mikec3010 on Monday July 23, 2018 @03:24PM (#17595194)
> before I learned how fucked-up our immigration system is.

Fucked up because they give higher-educated people preference, or fucked up because corporations lobby for more H1B workers to depress engineering wages industry wide?

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by amyjess on Monday July 23, 2018 @03:49PM (#17595400)
It's fucked-up because there are very, very few ways to actually get into the US legally.

And in this case they're not giving educated people preference. They didn't come here on a rule that says that people with postgraduate degrees get to come to the US. They came here on a student visa because coming here on a student visa is one of the few ways to get in at all, and it just so happens that a student visa can be upgraded to an H1-B later if the student lands a job with a company willing to sponsor them.

I'd recommend reading this flowchart which explains in detail how fucked-up our immigration system is:

https://reason.com/assets/db/07cf533ddb1d06350cf1ddb5942ef5a...

Interestingly enough, it doesn't mention coming here on a student visa and then upgrading to an H1-B; it's basically the only loophole around that depressing flowchart. Vox's slideshow on immigration, though, does link the flowchart and mention student visas are one of the only other ways to get in (the other is a tourist visa, which is useless for immigration because you can't upgrade, and you'll be denied a tourist visa if the US thinks you're interested in immigrating):

https://www.vox.com/cards/immigration-immigrants-reform-us/h...

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by neuromantik8086 on Monday July 23, 2018 @05:36PM (#17596238)
The academic route is basically a form of modern-day indentured servitude, which is another way in which wages for American students who decided upon pursuing a PhD for "the life of the mind" rather than economic reasons are depressed (e.g., Indians are willing to work for much less because it's their only way in, and the money is much better than developing countries). I have little faith that efforts at unionization among grad students and adjuncts will gain any traction until this is addressed.

tl;dr: Immigration reform would be a godsend for restoring some sense of sanity to the system.

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by axiom92 on Monday July 23, 2018 @08:28PM (#17597174)
It's also fucked up because a vast majority of the people who come via this route are rich kids with parents ready to back them up with cash if shit hits the fan. Lower middle class/lower class students usually don't even dream about taking a 4 million rupee loan, because they realize how fucked they would be if something goes wrong. No wonder what this kind of a sampling bias will do to the average quality of people coming in. It used to be different when a vast majority of students used to come on scholarships, but there are plenty of colleges now who run the MS program like a cash cow.
Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by monksy on Monday July 23, 2018 @03:38PM (#17595317)
The quality of the degrees are very different. The US is known from having a good level and it's respected in most places around the world.
Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by zucan on Monday July 23, 2018 @04:31PM (#17595714)
Is it that unappealing for US citizens to get a STEM PhD? Especially in the US the private sector ought to offer enough jobs at the PhD level and pay to make the PhD worthwile.
Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by grigjd3 on Monday July 23, 2018 @05:22PM (#17596144)
Depends on the particular stem field but in general, if the goal is a well paying job, STEM PhDs are one of the harder ways to get there.
Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by hycaria on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @09:37AM (#17600846)
Hard ? Because of getting the PhD in the first place or refocusing your career afterwards ?
Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by grigjd3 on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @10:27AM (#17601303)
Well, again, it depends on the particular field, but both reasons can apply. My study of black holes was hard and didn't exactly make for a ton of usable skills other than knowing how to learn.
Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by 1996 on Monday July 23, 2018 @01:15PM (#17594149)
Most of academia is toxic. Those who don't see that haven't spent enough time in it.

I believe things can't go well in general in any area where money comes from organized begging ("proposals", "apply for funding"), driven by reputation ("publications", "impact factor") and where the bad eggs can't even be fired ("tenure")

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by neuromantik8086 on Monday July 23, 2018 @01:22PM (#17594196)
> driver by reputation ("publications", "impact factor") and where the bad eggs can't even be fired ("tenure")

From personal experience, I've always felt as though the existence of "rock star" academics always gave academia a Hollywood-like feel in terms of systemic abuse and candidly bizarre and maladaptive behaviors on the part of researchers.

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by 1996 on Monday July 23, 2018 @04:45PM (#17595817)
At least Hollywood has tabloids to keep things reasonable!
Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by neuromantik8086 on Monday July 23, 2018 @10:45PM (#17597734)
Academia does have Retraction Watch [0]. Unfortunately/fortunately, it operates outside the system.

[0] https://retractionwatch.com/

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by Kalium on Monday July 23, 2018 @01:59PM (#17594476)
My experience is that some people in academia really have minimal idea of what the world outside it is like. They literally can't imagine anything different and certainly haven't experienced it.
Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by GW150914 on Monday July 23, 2018 @01:39PM (#17594338)
Most of academia is toxic. Those who don't see that haven't spent enough time in it.

Or they’ve spent way too much time in. It’s like people who spend a couple of decades in a prison, they’re fully institutionalized and feel they can’t cope with the real world.

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by eli_gottlieb on Monday July 23, 2018 @03:59PM (#17595473)
>I believe things can't go well in general in any area where money comes from organized begging ("proposals", "apply for funding"), driven by reputation ("publications", "impact factor") and where the bad eggs can't even be fired ("tenure")

So you're never, ever gonna work with venture capitalists?

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by 1996 on Monday July 23, 2018 @04:44PM (#17595808)
Being in crypto, fortunately I won't have to.

One of the few benefits of ICO: you can now raise money without having to bother with VCs. That's a nice evolution.

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by geebee on Monday July 23, 2018 @01:29PM (#17594260)
I have a masters degree, bailed on a phD, and even then I didn't realize it quite quickly enough. My MS program at Berkeley was quite flexible, and it was easy enough to get the requisite math. I dropped courses like Intellectual Property (cross listed with the law school), Product Development (cross listed with the business school), courses I was enjoying and would have done quite well in, to take classes like "advanced nonlinear optimization", which were a bad match for me.

Yes, nonlinear optimization will help you understand how neural nets work, but trust me, you don't need to take an advanced graduate class full of PhD students on the topic. If you have the prerequisites to the prerequisites, you understand math well enough to read about gradient descent on your own.

To be clear, there are people who belonged in this class, I just wasn't one of them.

For a lot of people, the sooner you realize a PhD isn't a good match for you, the better. The problem is, the sort of person who has the grades, test scores, and academic mindset to get into a top PhD program is almost certain to be slow to realize (and accept!) this. Add in the fact that PhD programs have astoundingly high attrition rates compared to professional doctoral programs (atrition at UCSF's med school is below 0.5%, whereas many PhD programs have attrition rates about 50% - yes, literally 100 times higher!) and you start to get a sense of why a lot of seemingly smart people get kind of snookered on PhD programs.

One big difference here is that people who masters out of STEM PhD programs can often still have a career in this field, perhaps a better renumerated one anyway. Though from what I've seen, getting a PhD in lit isn't necessarily a good path for someone who loves literature or theater, either.

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by davidgay on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:55AM (#17600167)
> atrition at UCSF's med school is below 0.5%, whereas many PhD programs have attrition rates about 50%

Some of us went through school systems with 50% pass rates for middle school, high school and university, so don't find that either surprising, nor necessarily bad.

In fact, I at least am somewhat confused that a high pass rate is considered "good" - it clearly encourages grade inflation and arguably devalues the received degree...

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by MaxBarraclough on Monday July 23, 2018 @01:10PM (#17594104)
> Why the hell should I research for publishing?

Because publications pretty much define your scientific contributions, i.e. your productivity as a researcher.

> One should get the results AND THEN publish it.

You must have had a body of work that was just about worthy of publication though, right?

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by luizfzs on Monday July 23, 2018 @01:24PM (#17594216)
Im not saying 'why publishing?'. Im saying 'why publish if I barely know if what Im doing will have some positive result?

Think of this example: we are researching for a few months whether an arbitrary compound X has relieffing effects on people with headache, but since we are still researching, there is no concrete result or any slight evidence yet. maybe the compound will relief the headache in 30min but maybe it will make your nose bleed.

but there is this conference about headaches that is approaching and why not submit a paper about the work with some results? WHAT RESULTS? You will spend countless hours reading (more) about headaches and compound X to write the background of the manuscript while you still have to figure out the tests you will perform test your assumption.

you will work for weeks (under more pressure) with the hope you could publish something that is very uncertain at the current state.

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by anjc on Monday July 23, 2018 @02:51PM (#17594896)
I don't know why the downvotes. Publishing something takes a lot of directed effort. It's so tough to stop doing (what feels like) the real work, and quickly squeeze out a submission for a conference that has a 10% acceptance rate. Of course publishing is extremely important, but too large a focus on publishing hampers results.
Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by Fomite on Monday July 23, 2018 @04:57PM (#17595920)
Results that aren't disseminated are functionally useless.
Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by taejo on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @05:38AM (#17599392)
Sure, results need to be published. The problem is that the cart is put before the horse: we decide to publish the results, and where to publish, before we have an inkling of what the results will be.
Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by Fomite on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @06:45PM (#17605548)
I'm not necessarily sure this is the cart before the horse.

Deciding to publish the results can just as easily be restated as "Come up with an experiment with a clear and precise scope"

Where to publish is often determining what audience and what questions to ask. For example, targeting a clinical journal means proofs and analytical results may be less compelling, while a simulation of a study might be of active interest.

Both of those help narrow the scope of "All possible interesting questions" to something tractable.

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by ylmm on Monday July 23, 2018 @01:48PM (#17594402)
I'm not sure I see what your issue is. It seems the scenario you're describing is just a case of working harder to make a deadline, which there's nothing wrong with per se. If you're talking about fudging results or cutting corners to make a deadline, then that'd be a problem. Otherwise, I'm not sure I see your point.
Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by glitchc on Monday July 23, 2018 @04:19PM (#17595622)
The OP's point is, I'm afraid a valid one. Attempting to find a statisticallly significant to report on in time to meet a conference deadline means experiments are fudged, results are cherry picked and discrepancies are swept under the rug. Conference and funding deadlines coupled with the need to generate a publication record are almost entirely responsible for the dubious nature of the average scientific article. It's a classic case of Goodhart's Law.
Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by tnecniv on Monday July 23, 2018 @09:25PM (#17597439)
If you have no results, there's nothing you can do.

However, unless you stumble upon something that works out very nicely right before a deadline, a publication requires planning many months in advance what you are going to do.

Re:Why some PhDs are quitting academia for unconventional jobs by KKKKkkkk1 on Monday July 23, 2018 @11:44PM (#17597968)
It's pretty standard in industry to get a deadline by which you need to finish your project when you start working on it.