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Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by rwcarlsen on Thursday July 19, 2018 @12:30PM (#17567895)
This reminds me of the desirability of pre-WWII battleship steel in particle physics experiments. Due to required detection sensitivity they need to construct experiments from materials that have as low background radiation as possible in order to not mask the actual information of interest. Ever since the first atomic bombs were detonated, sufficiently low-radioactivity steel became much more difficult to find. A large portion of available low-background steel supply is from battleships that were built before the bombs [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by jessriedel on Thursday July 19, 2018 @12:53PM (#17568161)
Note that there is a similar particle-physics demand for lead from Roman-Empire warships ("ancient lead"). But in that case, it doesn't have anything to do with anthropogenic radiation. Rather, lead that is in the ground is constantly kept slightly radioactivate by background decays. But lead that has been pulled out of the ground and allowed to sit unmolested for a thousand years will deactivate.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by jessriedel on Thursday July 19, 2018 @01:33PM (#17568620)
The popular coverage:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-roman-lea...

I saw a talk on one of these experiments while I was a grad student. Apparently their lead source had "historical significance" according to the government of France, and getting it out of the country required beurocratic maneuvers of questionanable legality.

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by sandworm101 on Thursday July 19, 2018 @03:18PM (#17569445)
The real shame is that ancient lead isn't the only alternative, just the cheapest. Lead could be spun in centrifuges and then securely cast to remove such contaminants. This has been done with silicon, in that case to remove unwanted isotopes. It is a wildly expensive process but at least it is a process that could produce an infinite amount of product, rather than ancient lead of finite supply.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by mirimir on Thursday July 19, 2018 @09:56PM (#17571890)
Huh. Basically like uranium?

But what compound? PbH4 isn't stable. PbF4 is barely stable. Maybe Pb(CH4)4 ??? Naively, I guess that you'd get even better mass resolution. Molectual mass of UF6 being ~352, vs ~267 for Pb(CH4)4. Good use for all those leftover centrifuges ;)

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by sandworm101 on Friday July 20, 2018 @09:27AM (#17574778)
Or maybe even with just liquid lead? Would need very different machines but might be possible.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by Stratoscope on Friday July 20, 2018 @12:06AM (#17572377)
> a process that could produce an infinite amount of product

Well, it would be infinite until you run out.

Edit: it appears that someone disagrees with me. No worries, healthy disagreement is a good thing.

But I'm curious: how would you produce an infinite amount of product?

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by PhasmaFelis on Friday July 20, 2018 @02:00AM (#17572828)
You're getting downvoted because you're nitpicking vocabulary. Most people understood "infinite amount of product" to mean "functionally infinite, given the low demand and large supply."
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by Stratoscope on Friday July 20, 2018 @03:32AM (#17573134)
You are no doubt correct.

I won't worry about it further, time to go enjoy my unlimited internet.

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by alephnil on Thursday July 19, 2018 @01:58PM (#17568817)
The presence of Cesium-137 and Strontium-90 has also been used to reveal art forgeries. Before atomic bombs were tested, these isotopes did not exist in nature. Art produced before 1945 will not contain these isotopes, while art produced after that time usually will.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by mulmen on Thursday July 19, 2018 @02:18PM (#17568974)
How does this work? The old art still exists but how does it avoid exposure? Why is exposure only relevant at the time of creation? Will old paint used in modern times display the isotope?
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by pulisse on Thursday July 19, 2018 @02:21PM (#17569007)
Traces of the isotopes in question are detectable in the pigments used in recently produced art. Surface contamination isn't what's being tested.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by azernik on Thursday July 19, 2018 @06:42PM (#17570991)
The issue is usually in contamination of raw materials.

Similar to carbon-14 dating - the isotopic ratio of carbon in the atmosphere is maintained by cosmic radiation hitting the carbon-12 and carbon-13 atoms, but as soon as the carbon is incorporated into solid matter it ceases to be part of the process that renews the carbon-14 levels.

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by TomK32 on Thursday July 19, 2018 @04:16PM (#17569853)
And one source for this steel is courtesy to Admiral von Reuter who managed to scuttle his fleet, guarded by the Brits and interned in the Orkney archipelago, in June 1919. Better to sink that serve the enemy, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_German_fleet_...

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by toomanybeersies on Thursday July 19, 2018 @08:38PM (#17571568)
A bit nicer than having the British attack an allied fleet because they might capitulate to the Germans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir

In Britain's defence, the Germans did later try to capture the remnants of the French fleet, and the French scuttled their fleet to avoid capture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_French_fleet_...

Another interesting story involving the scuttling of a ship is the Battle of the River Plate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_River_Plate). The German ship, the Admiral Graf Spee, was forced into a neutral port due to damage. Rather than be forced out to face an overwhelming force they were certain to lose against, Captain Langsdorff instead scuttled the ship and committed suicide.

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by avar on Thursday July 19, 2018 @04:48PM (#17570126)
I couldn't find a straight answer to this the last time I looked, but it sounds to me like this is more of a matter of cost then the actual hard need for pre-WWII steel.

We could mine ore that hasn't been exposed to the atmosphere since then, and use air (either purified or found in some air pockets underground) for the furnace behind an airlock.

This would be much more expensive than just finding some pre-WWII steel, there's a lot of that around, but I don't think it's the case that if we somehow didn't have it we'd be screwed.

Am I wrong?

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by kilovoltaire on Thursday July 19, 2018 @12:34PM (#17567944)
Wow, I hadn't realized the effects of the atomic age were that widespread, creepy.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by jessriedel on Thursday July 19, 2018 @01:53PM (#17568777)
You should make the opposite conclusion. The fact that atoms are so tiny that almost every notable event has a detectable affect on isotope ratios means you should downgrade the meaningfulness of the OP article. (See my other comment on ancient lead, which has nothing to do with nuclear tech.) Likewise, when seizmic technology improves and we can sense explosions from further away, we don't conclude that building demolition is somehow more important than we previously thought.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by rthille on Thursday July 19, 2018 @04:50PM (#17570150)
Yeah, a similar observation is that there are more atoms in a glass of water than glasses of water in all the oceans. So, dumping a glass of (somehow trackable) water into the ocean would eventually cause every glass of water to contain atoms from that glass. See also: http://samkean.com/books/caesars-last-breath/
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by robocat on Thursday July 19, 2018 @05:40PM (#17570543)
Or it takes 10 years for one of your breaths to be spread around the atmosphere, and everyone is very likely to be breathing at least one molecule of that breath in every breath they take.

From article "Breathing Everyone's Air" - scroll down to that heading in http://www.scifun.ed.ac.uk/card/facts.html

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by mikeash on Thursday July 19, 2018 @12:58PM (#17568228)
Take a look at this friendly graph of carbon-14 concentration in the atmosphere since 1955 for just one example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14#/media/File%3ARadi...
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by avian on Thursday July 19, 2018 @01:41PM (#17568692)
Just note that this friendly graph employs the bad practice of not having the vertical axis origin at 0, which visually exaggerates the change.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by jackpirate on Thursday July 19, 2018 @03:21PM (#17569468)
I disagree. It's a multiplicative factor vertically centered to 1. Seems better to me than if it had been aligned to 0.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by pqhwan on Thursday July 19, 2018 @02:01PM (#17568841)
Not necessarily a bad practice. Most of the graphs I've seen use this technique, do so to make the changes in value visible, not to deceive the viewer.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by mikeash on Thursday July 19, 2018 @02:25PM (#17569057)
If the change is invisible on a 0-based graph, maybe the change isn’t so important....

This one only exaggerates things by a factor of 2, at least.

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by daxorid on Thursday July 19, 2018 @04:30PM (#17569976)
Doubling is pretty significant, as is the rate of increase prior to, and dropoff after, 1963.

If some sort of catastrophe befalls our current civilization and future archaeologists attempt to C14 date our fossils and artifacts derived from carbon sequestered during this era, their results will be wildly unreliable.

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by jacobolus on Thursday July 19, 2018 @03:56PM (#17569708)
There are many important changes that are hard to see on a 0-based graph.

If you plot human body temperature in Kelvins, the difference between someone with hypothermia and someone with a raging fever are relatively slight (under 2%).

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by kolpa on Thursday July 19, 2018 @03:36PM (#17569574)
0 is only relevant for linear utility/impact functions The effect of an isotope isn't necessarily linear in its magnitude from 0. The baseline should be something that matters, like maximum safe dose.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by mikeash on Thursday July 19, 2018 @03:38PM (#17569592)
If you have a baseline and a scale that indicates an actual effect, then by all means use it. That’s not the case here, nor has it been the case for any other such graph I can remember seeing. Universally, the bottom is chosen as the minimum value in the data being plotted.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by kemitche on Thursday July 19, 2018 @05:07PM (#17570268)
Climate change is significant, even though I'm certain that temperature charted against 0 Kelvin isn't too visible.

Zero can be just as arbitrary a starting point as non-zero.

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by contravariant on Thursday July 19, 2018 @03:18PM (#17569441)
The cosmic microwave background is invisible on a 0-based image.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by mikeash on Thursday July 19, 2018 @03:29PM (#17569523)
Only if you’re trying to show the CMB and galaxies in the same image. Since doing so would be misleading as to the brightness of the CMB, that seems like a feature, not a bug.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by contravariant on Thursday July 19, 2018 @06:38PM (#17570955)
No, if you insist on a uniform colormap that includes 0K (or whatever measurement you're showing the CMB with) then there's absolutely no way to make the CMB visible. The average temperature is 2.72548 K with variations on the order of 0.00057 K. Its incredible uniformity is one of its more important features.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by mikeash on Thursday July 19, 2018 @07:02PM (#17571110)
Oh, you meant variations in the CMB. I thought you just meant making the CMB visible.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by barrkel on Thursday July 19, 2018 @02:09PM (#17568915)
That's just it: if the changes are only visible if you chop off the bottom of the graph, the probability they aren't significant increases.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by kolpa on Thursday July 19, 2018 @03:38PM (#17569595)
How would you feel if your body temperature increased 3%? Barely visible in a 0-based graph.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by barrkel on Thursday July 19, 2018 @07:00PM (#17571101)
What is a 3% change in body temperature? From absolute zero?

(My point is that temperature is probably an odd man out in graph terms, our usual reference points are not actually at zero.)

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by ryanmercer on Thursday July 19, 2018 @01:00PM (#17568263)
Check out Caesar's Last Breath: Decoding the Secrets of the Air Around Us by Sam Kean.

Far less interesting a read, an article about how many molecules of Beyonce's breath you inhale with each breath. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/12/beyonce-breath_n_6...

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by rm_-rf_slash on Thursday July 19, 2018 @01:34PM (#17568628)
A paleontologist friend of mine often quips that in his field, everything from the 1950s onward is considered “present date”, because the additional radiation pretty much ruined any chance of accurate carbon dating after the atmospheric testing era.

Granted, paleontology looks back in the span of millions to billions of years, so those ancient fossils are ok, but I imagine future scientists will grind their teeth an awful lot when trying to make scientific sense of our present day.

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by mikeash on Thursday July 19, 2018 @02:37PM (#17569150)
Maybe they’ll love having a really obvious marker that they can definitively date to almost the exact year.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by BrandonMarc on Thursday July 19, 2018 @01:05PM (#17568337)
Merely by breathing for a year, everyone in the world inhales a measureable amount of radiation from atmospheric tests performed in the 1950s.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by yread on Thursday July 19, 2018 @01:49PM (#17568746)
check out this graph of radioactive cesium in mother's milk

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130403200836/htt...

Chernobyl is just a tiny blip.

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by vkou on Thursday July 19, 2018 @01:18PM (#17568465)
Just about every living thing that has lived since 1945 has had tracers of the atomic age within its body, in the form of isotopes that were far less common, prior to atmospheric nuclear tests.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by CompelTechnic on Thursday July 19, 2018 @02:44PM (#17569213)
Another chemical effect of the modern age:

Before the industrial revolution, silver did not tarnish. Burning coal introduced enough sulfur in the air that silver started tarnishing.

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by sls on Thursday July 19, 2018 @03:04PM (#17569352)
This struck me as very surprising. Straight Dope's take[1]:

> While coal-burning power plants are responsible for producing most of the sulfur dioxide out there (and thus acid rain), they don’t contribute that much of the compounds that actually cause silver to tarnish, namely hydrogen sulfide—best known as a key player in the smell of rotten eggs and flatulence—and the similarly pungent carbonyl sulfide. About 90 percent of the hydrogen sulfide and more than two-thirds of the carbonyl sulfide in our atmosphere come from (you guessed it) volcanoes, salt marshland, undersea vents, and other natural sources.

[1] https://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/columns/straight-dope/ar...

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by nanomonkey on Thursday July 19, 2018 @04:20PM (#17569881)
> more than two-thirds of the carbonyl sulfide in our atmosphere come from (you guessed it)

And here I thought they were going to say rotten eggs and flatulence...

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by mikec3010 on Thursday July 19, 2018 @12:43PM (#17568058)
Is there a reason they can't smelt it from fresh ore and carbon?
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by CompelTechnic on Thursday July 19, 2018 @12:49PM (#17568123)
The process of creating steel requires heating it with coke in a large furnace. A large volume of atmospheric air is pumped into the furnace, and it is this atmospheric air that introduces the radioactive particles to the mix.

There are vacuum furnaces that lack this atmospheric air, but their process is much more expensive.

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by givinguflac on Thursday July 19, 2018 @03:42PM (#17569614)
Heating it with Coke?
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by georgyo on Thursday July 19, 2018 @03:47PM (#17569646)
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by CompelTechnic on Thursday July 19, 2018 @04:06PM (#17569792)
Delicious Coca-Cola (tm) </s>
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by patd on Thursday July 19, 2018 @12:46PM (#17568086)
The link explains that it’s due to the atmospheric air used in the process.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by zamfi on Thursday July 19, 2018 @02:18PM (#17568978)
> From 1856 until the mid 20th century, steel was produced in the Bessemer process where air was forced into Bessemer converters converting the pig iron into steel. By the mid-20th century, many steelworks had switched to the BOS process which uses pure oxygen instead of air. However as both processes use atmospheric gas, they are susceptible to contamination from airborne particulates. Present-day air carries radionuclides, such as cobalt-60, which are deposited into the steel giving it a weak radioactive signature.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel

Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by tzahola on Thursday July 19, 2018 @12:56PM (#17568203)
the isotopes from the air would contaminate it.
Re:Fukushima’s nuclear signature found in California wine by rorykoehler on Thursday July 19, 2018 @11:38PM (#17572249)
Forgive my ignorance as I really don't know anything about this but would it not be possible, when using post WW2 steel, to take before and after readings and diff them?