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Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by victor106 on Saturday July 14, 2018 @07:34PM (#17532941)
TIL From the article “To determine the age of the tools, the researchers took advantage of the planet’s changing magnetic field.

From time to time, Earth’s magnetic field flips, turning north to south. Magnetic minerals in the soil and ocean are pushed into alignment with the field; when they are trapped in rocks, they still point in the telltale direction.

Geophysicists have precisely determined the timing of these magnetic flips, which have taken place at the same time all around the world. It’s a useful way to date the material found in layers of rock.”

Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by njarboe on Sunday July 15, 2018 @12:08AM (#17533749)
These flips happen quickly on a geologic timescale but are not quick on a human timescale. It takes around 1-10 thousand years for the field to flip. The last one happened around 780k years ago. More often the magnetic field gets quite weak for awhile, like the field is going to flip, but then the magnetic field returns to the same strength and direction. These are called excursions and the last one of these was likely the Laschamp excursion about 40k years ago.
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by ericd on Sunday July 15, 2018 @01:28AM (#17533920)
Huh, interesting. Do you know if anyone has looked at whether the rate of genetic mutations increases during those 10k year periods of weakened magnetic field? Seems like that would cause the magnetosphere to become less effective at deflecting cosmic radiation.
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by njarboe on Sunday July 15, 2018 @11:32AM (#17535632)
Many people have looked into if these reversals can cause extinction events and they don't appear to. Determining a change in average mutation rates seems like something that would not be possible from the rock record. The last reversal was so long ago that DNA does not survive well enough to do a good study even if one had the right kind of samples to work with.
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by ericd on Sunday July 15, 2018 @02:17PM (#17536322)
Yeah, makes sense. I was thinking that you could look for an uptick in biodiversity or something from the fossil record, but I'm sure it would be tricky to separate the reasons for that.
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by Pica_soO on Sunday July 15, 2018 @12:26AM (#17533786)
Super interesting, thanks for posting about the Laschamp Event
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by hyperpallium on Sunday July 15, 2018 @12:03AM (#17533731)
Funfact: key evidence for the theory of tectonic plates was the changing magnetic field direction in rocks with distance from their magma source.

Always seemed like one fantastical theory being supported by another fantastical theory. (Don't worry, I'm not a tectonic skeptic.)

Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by tomlock on Saturday July 14, 2018 @07:59PM (#17533014)
As I understand it there's a strong belief amongst Chinese nationalists that the Chinese diverged early from other humans. It makes me suspicious of this announcement, as it may be playing to those beliefs. However, I'm not sure it is untrue, doesn't bother me either way.
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by garmaine on Saturday July 14, 2018 @08:41PM (#17533151)
Well, to that end the very first sentence of this article is wrong. These weren't carved by ancestors of anyone living today. This was homo erectus, a distant cousin.
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by alecco on Sunday July 15, 2018 @04:03AM (#17534297)
Well, many Chinese scholars claim the Chinese are descendants from Homo Erectus.

It's even shown on a BBC documentary, they get disappointed when DNA analysis disproves their skull-shape "evidence".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incredible_Human_Journey#2...

Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by garmaine on Sunday July 15, 2018 @05:34PM (#17537219)
The fact that I have healthy half-chinese kids puts the nail in the coffin of that idea... among many other things. It's about as serious an idea as a flat earth or "intelligent design".
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by laretluval on Saturday July 14, 2018 @11:06PM (#17533598)
I don't think even the strongest Chinese nationalist would claim that the Chinese diverged from everyone else 2 million years ago!
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by johnzim on Saturday July 14, 2018 @11:36PM (#17533663)
Actually there was a very significant amount of money ploughed into researching that exact topic in the PRC.

With significant and predictable sadness when the results didn't go their (the CCP and Chinese nationalists) way.

A google search gives a good paper on the topic:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/28941533.pdf

TLDR: CCP, seeking to shore up ethno-nationalism (not an especially rare occurance in Chinese history) spent a LOT of time and research trying to prove that Han Chinese are in fact originally descended from Homo erectus Pekinensis rather than the African Homo Sapiens. (EDIT: Spelling)

Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by laretluval on Sunday July 15, 2018 @12:48PM (#17535979)
Homo erectus pekinensis isn't 2 million years old.

Go back 2.1 million years, like these stone tools, and it's not even clear that there is a genus Homo.

Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by powerapple on Monday July 16, 2018 @03:04AM (#17539314)
what's wrong with trying to prove something? As long as it is research, I can see nothing wrong with it. Especially if they want to understand where they are from.
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by rossdavidh on Saturday July 14, 2018 @06:28PM (#17532736)
So, if we looked at all of the "oldest yet found" discoveries (that held up to later scrutiny), and plotted their date vs. the date they were found, would we see it asymptotically approaching some (presumably actual true) value? A job for an enterprising data scientist/archaeologist out there.
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by garmaine on Saturday July 14, 2018 @08:42PM (#17533154)
What would that show?
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by rossdavidh on Sunday July 15, 2018 @04:06PM (#17536787)
Perhaps, what the actual value could be expected to be. So, for example, you don't do a lot of work on top of the current estimates for oldest tool-using humans outside of Africa, that is likely to be overturned in ten or twenty years.
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by garmaine on Sunday July 15, 2018 @05:31PM (#17537200)
It wouldn't be convergent.
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by rossdavidh on Sunday July 15, 2018 @07:12PM (#17537621)
Interesting if true. I could easily believe what you say, but do we know that? I don't know the field well enough to say.
Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by garmaine on Sunday July 15, 2018 @09:10PM (#17538060)
Yes it is rather trivially true. The age is getting exponentially further while discoveries are happening faster.

But that reflects improvements in technology, not anything about what’s being measured.

Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by njarboe on Sunday July 15, 2018 @12:02AM (#17533727)
The original Nature article published July 11[1].

[1]https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0299-4

Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by ggm on Saturday July 14, 2018 @05:57PM (#17532610)
The 'out of africa' story gets more and more hard to sustain the longer people look around for other stories in the emergence of modern humans. Yes, the apes is out of africa. And then? it gets really complicated really fast.

Also, reminded of the endless jokes about who is more advanced from what archeologists find in their own country: Americans find copper wire: invented primitive networks. Russians find Glass threads: invented optical networks. Irish dig up a bog and find nothing: invented wifi!

Re:Archaeologists in China Discover the Oldest Stone Tools O... by rsynnott on Sunday July 15, 2018 @09:09AM (#17535095)
“Out of Africa” refers to the theory that Homo sapiens (our direct ancestors) came out of Africa. This article is referring to tools made by Homo erectus or another homonid group. So, not our direct ancestors, more distant cousins.