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Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by kaitai on Sunday July 08, 2018 @11:32AM (#17484250)
This is a really interesting read for me, as I'm considering the purchase of a cargo bike. Apparently, I fit the stereotype pretty well -- highly-educated urban coffee-drinker (no yoga, no vegetarianism, though). The cargo bike would solve the problem of hauling hardware-store purchases home with kid and sans car. But they're expensive! 1.5 or 2 thousand dollars! So for now we're making do with the bus and the stroller we found with a "free" sign on the side of the road.

It is important to be thoughtful about the roles various types of transportation play for people of different socioeconomic groups in the US. I take the bus and train often in my town, and it's generally a very mixed population. The train/light-rail is becoming a de facto homeless shelter at night, though. At the same time light rail gets criticized for being for the upper class, rather than efficiently serving the poor, because it goes between downtowns/to the airport/to the suburbs/to the sports complexes. Biking, as well, has huge class and race divides. In the US the weekend spandex-wearer is a huge set of the bicycling public. Everyday commuters are a segment too, and then family weekend bikers, and then people who've lost their drivers' licenses due to DUI/DWI or other entanglement with the criminal justice system. How these communities interact and how they use our infrastructure differently is worth considering when planning new investments or thinking about how to encourage bicycling. The weekend warrior wants a nice scenic 45-mile continuous route; I want a seamless path across the city that doesn't involve battling any cars at highway speeds to get into the left-turn lane; neither of us wants to run over a 5-year-old getting the hang of the bike.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by noelwelsh on Sunday July 08, 2018 @12:29PM (#17484599)
If you haven't considered it already, a bike trailer is likely to be a cheaper alternative to a cargo bike. I've had a bike trailer for years. Mine is a Croozer 2. I transported my kids to nursery in it, and did supermarket runs etc. The tradeoff is it is an extra thing you have to worry about. It's much less convenient to park / lock-up than just the bike on its own. Regardless, I'm looking forward to getting it out when we more to a more bike-friendly place in a month.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by anonacct37 on Sunday July 08, 2018 @03:29PM (#17485664)
I have a trailer for grocery store runs. I feel like a total hipster, probably because I am.

But I have so much shit to do and so little time to exercise I have to multitask and game myself into doing things. A good grocery store recently opened up near me and I committed to riding my bike there whenever possible.

It literally takes 5-10m more but in return I get 20-30m of good exercise. Seems like a good trade.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by japanuspus on Sunday July 08, 2018 @04:55PM (#17486148)
This. I have made it a rule to always use the bike when going around town. With kids and family, this is pretty much all the exercise I get, but it's enough that I haven't gained any weight from 8 years of free food at the office.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by st26 on Sunday July 08, 2018 @06:48PM (#17486702)
FWIW, a good pannier bag will fit a day or two's groceries just fine. I have both a trailer and a pannier, but the pannier is less hassle for small trips.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by smartbit on Sunday July 08, 2018 @11:34PM (#17487808)
I have a huge pannier that fit a pair of large groceries bags. I fitted two large holes on the front side for a strap that goes around the saddle pin.

On Saturdays we strap it on our bike, ride to the farmers market and fill the bags up with grossiers for all week for a 3 persons household no problem. Probably some 30kg it can carry with ease. Back at home we take the panniers off so the bike fits in the typical Amsterdam bike shed and fits in the 2 stories bike-racks the train station for daily commutes.

So much more convenient than a Cargo bike that can not be properly stored in 90% of the Amsterdam bike sheds and therefor will need to stay outside all year and take precious sidewalk. At the farmers market it would be quite difficult to find a proper location to park it too. And at train stations even more difficult to find a place to park it.

Taking 30kg on our back in a backpack is not an option for us. Neither is walking through the narrow alleys of a farmers market with a huge backpack.

In the busy pedestrians & bike traffic of Saturday Amsterdam, mounting a canal bridge with an additional 30kg can be quite a feat but not more difficult than a with Cargo bike.

IMHO a large and dismountable pannier is a economic and more convenient alternative for a Cargo bike that can replace it for almost everything except transporting a couple of kids. It's time this means of groceries transport is revived.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by justinator on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:20PM (#17484939)
Check out this invention my buddy made - it turns ANY bike into a cargo bike!

https://argobikes.com/

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by jacquesm on Sunday July 08, 2018 @07:13PM (#17486836)
I absolutely love the Argo but would caution to make sure your bike plays nicely with it before committing to purchase. Argo claims it should work with Aluminum bikes but I would be very wary of that combination, most AL bikes are near the edge of their engineering parameters and the Argo loads the frame in ways that I'm not 100% comfortable with. If I were to use one - almost bought it but then settled on a 2nd hand Christiania - I'd use it on a steel bike, not an aluminum one. (The bike it was supposed to go on was an aluminum one and that is why we ended up abandoning the Argo.)
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by double0jimb0 on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:35PM (#17485032)
Backed Kickstarter for the Argo and the delivered product exceeded all expectations.

I hope they catch on, the Argo is 1/3 the price of the fancy euro cargo bikes.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by justinator on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:41PM (#17485069)
AWESOME! I started a new HN thread on it (for what its worth):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17484959

Scott @ Argo ran the best bike shop ever, before starting Argo. Such a clever solution!

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by seniorsassycat on Sunday July 08, 2018 @02:05PM (#17485182)
I have a trailer for my windsurf. It's a great way to get around and it doesn't affect my bikes handling. I have an electric bike so I don't notice the weight either.

My windsurf is more than three meters long so I am worried about the tail end swinging out when I turn. A rear view mirror would make me more comfortable. The trailer is low so I'm also worried about a car passing behind me driving into it.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by No1 on Sunday July 08, 2018 @05:45PM (#17486385)
Consider putting a flagpole with brightly colored flag on the back of your trailer. I often see these on child trailers and sometimes recumbent bikes - it helps immensely with visibility by putting something in the sight line of drivers.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by u801e on Sunday July 08, 2018 @08:30PM (#17487130)
> The trailer is low so I'm also worried about a car passing behind me driving into it.

I wonder if this concern is really valid. I have a Burley Bee trailer and I've tested out approaching my bike with the trailer attached from behind both in my minivan and sedan vehicles and had no problem seeing the trailer. I've also noticed that vehicles tend to give me more space and are more conservative when passing when I'm riding with the trailer attached, so I don't think they have a problem seeing it. I don't bother using a flag though.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by Fricken on Sunday July 08, 2018 @04:18PM (#17485967)
I picked up a portage bag, which is a heavy duty waterproof backpack big enough to hold a dead body, but I use it mostly for groceries and other big hauls on a bike. It's basically just a big bucket you wear on your back. I suppose it's less comfortable than a trailer, but it doesn't require setup time, stores away nicely, and can hold 2 week's worth of groceries for 2.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by mturmon on Sunday July 08, 2018 @04:27PM (#17486015)
OTOH, if you use panniers, the heavy load is borne on the bike rather than your back.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by Fricken on Sunday July 08, 2018 @04:33PM (#17486044)
I'm a hipster who rides a stripped down fixie, I don't want to bolt a bunch of crap onto my bike. Minimalism is my thing.

Really what prompted me to get it was this big sketchbook I have that I wanted to be able to ride around with, and there was no regular bag of any sort capable of holding it except the portage bag.

I've done lots of backcountry hiking so I'm not afraid of carrying a big heavy bag on my back for a few miles.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by Obi_Juan_Kenobi on Sunday July 08, 2018 @06:43PM (#17486680)
You don't hike on your taint.

A bit of weight on your back while biking is fine, but it gets untenable surprisingly quickly.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by u801e on Sunday July 08, 2018 @08:22PM (#17487102)
> You don't hike on your taint.

In general, you shouldn't be putting weight on your perineum (taint) when in the saddle. You should be putting weight on your ischial tuberosities (sit bones) instead. The former can result in blood circulation problems, and possible damage to the nerves and urethra.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by woah on Sunday July 08, 2018 @08:15PM (#17487075)
I feel like OP knows what it’s like to have a heavy backpack on a bike
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by mattrices on Sunday July 08, 2018 @05:58PM (#17486453)
Would you link the portage bag youre refering to?
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by bronson on Sunday July 08, 2018 @06:38PM (#17486671)
My family called them Duluth Bags: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth_pack

They're just giant bags with straps: no frame, no padding. They might be hard to find online but you should be able to find one in pretty much any outdoor shop. Maybe look for a 120L duffel with straps. Love 'em.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by ghaff on Sunday July 08, 2018 @06:45PM (#17486687)
Northwest River Supplies is one common source.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by Fricken on Monday July 09, 2018 @10:05AM (#17490218)
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by sharpercoder on Sunday July 08, 2018 @12:48PM (#17484728)
A bike trailer has the dangerous property of not being in your peripheral vision. I personally would never transport kids in a bike trailer; I have seen my sister (her daughters) get into hurtful situations and potentially dangerous situations. Whenever you can spend more for a front-load cargobike, I would highly advise to do so.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by cullenking on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:16PM (#17484906)
I'm a long term cyclist, run a cycling business, ride tons of bikes. I can definitely say the bike with a trailer is easier to ride, and is safer by far. Full harness, roll cage, head whiplash protection etc. Just putting this comment out there so other people reading see another perspective and don't dismiss trailers as unsafe. They are great!
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by sharpercoder on Sunday July 08, 2018 @07:11PM (#17486830)
This bike trailer of my sister was with all that. My 3 year old niece managed to rip apart a cover and stuck her hands outside. The bike rode near some poles, causing potential hurt. My 4 year old nephew in the same trailer was close in "trying out what happened if I stick my finger there" (the wheel). I had to make a yell to impress him enough to stop. Luckily, I was cycling behind.

Likewise, if your kid gets acute illness (throwing up, dizzy, etc), you're not going to notice it right away.

I would go as far as outright banning these things for transport of living beings, with hefty fines for it. Please stop selling these things for living being transport, you will make the world a better place and have better margins on cargobikes.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by u801e on Sunday July 08, 2018 @08:34PM (#17487141)
I ride with a Burley Bee trailer with my 2 and 5 year old inside to and fron their daycare (3 miles each way). After probably 700 miles of riding with them, I haven't had the problems like you describe. Also, with the handlebar rearview mirror, I have no problem checking up on them while riding.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by Karrot_Kream on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:13PM (#17484885)
Would you suggest it for hauling inanimate objects? Does it handle well?
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by secabeen on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:18PM (#17484917)
If you're never going to haul kids, just get a utility trailer. They're much cheaper, probably because they don't have to be designed to protect humans.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by TomK32 on Sunday July 08, 2018 @11:41AM (#17484306)
yes, they are expensive, but once you have a cargo bike you can carry home a tig welder, alu pipes and all the other stuff to build a cargo bike :D

No seriously, they are expensive but if you look at craigslist and similar, they keep their value if you take care of your bike. and regarding road safety, ride in the right tire-mark left by the cars. you'll be safe from dooring and cars have to slow down and change lanes to overtake you instead of squeezing through.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by u801e on Sunday July 08, 2018 @08:36PM (#17487153)
It's actually better to ride slightly to the left of center (between the center and left tire track). Some cars, will try to squeeze themselves between you and oncoming traffic when you ride in the right tire track. Riding further to the left will make it clear to those behind you that they must change lanes to pass you.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by whatshisface on Sunday July 08, 2018 @11:51AM (#17484354)
>ride in the right tire-mark left by the cars.

If you're going to do that, why not just ride in the center of the lane like a motorcycle?

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by edoceo on Sunday July 08, 2018 @12:10PM (#17484454)
The center of the lane is slick with oil drippings, especially after rain. Right side tire rut is visible in rear-view mirror.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by monkeywork on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:24PM (#17484968)
This is often very illegal to do on a bicycle.

On a motorcycle lane position is very situational... however very very rarely if you are in motion is being in the middle of the lane a good idea. Generally speaking you should only be in the middle of the lane when you are fully stopped at a stop sign or light to keep cars from trying to squeeze by you.

On a normal two lane road (one each direction) you want to stay in the left hand side of the lane. This is so people over taking a car behind you spot you and don't force themselves in putting you in a dangerous spot.

On a four lane road (two lanes each way) you would hold the same position as previously mentioned if you were in the right lane however if you are in the left lane you would want to stay to the right side of that lane... this way again someone merging in from the right lane would see you.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by kevinschumacher on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:36PM (#17485043)
> [riding in the middle of the lane] is often very illegal to do on a bicycle.

Where are you from? In the few major US cities I've lived, this is legal. The road laws here typically treat bicycles the same as other cars (with exceptions).

IME, in urban, US east-coast cities, if you are toward one side of the lane, cars will try and pass you (even on the right... and yes that pushes the cyclist into oncoming traffic). It's a common opinion that you should take the whole lane, and let faster vehicles pass you as they would a slower car.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by monkeywork on Sunday July 08, 2018 @03:23PM (#17485623)
I would suggest actually looking into the traffic law - MOST - places explicitly state that bicycles should (with very few very specific exceptions) remain to the right side of the lane.

The Cyclist community disagree's with this in most places I've seen it mentioned but that doesn't change what the laws are. I'm not arguing safety I'm simply stating what is written. Obviously this varies from area to area but again suggest looking up what it actually states rather than your impression of it.

As far as cars passing you - if you are to the right side of the lane as most traffic laws require then cars should be able to easily pass you on the left without incident.

In my opinion a cyclist should not be purposely using an entire lane and backing up traffic for faster moving vehicles (forcing them to pass as they would a slower car which can cause issues during high traffic periods) when simply moving to the right is all that is required. Using the entire lane as a matter of principle increases your danger by provoking aggressive driving / road rage.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by btrettel on Sunday July 08, 2018 @04:05PM (#17485888)
As someone who has read the law in multiple states, your reading of the law seems to be selective.

You state that there are "very few very specific exceptions", when in California I count 7 exceptions that cover a lot:

1. When the cyclist is going at or near the speed limit.

2. When the cyclist is overtaking or passing.

3. When the cyclist is preparing for a left turn.

4. When the cyclist deems it necessary for safety.

5. When the cyclist is preparing for a right turn.

6. When the cyclist is on a one way road with two or more lanes.

7. When signs and road markings say so.

My own experience as a cyclist suggests that these exceptions apply over 95% of the time, if not over 99%. It seems misleading to me to say there are "very few very specific exceptions" given this.

This is particularly true for the safety exception. Most lanes are simply too narrow to move to the far right as you suggest. That's doubly true if there's parking on the side, as the cyclist wants to avoid the door zone. Add on top of all this all the debris that accumulates to the far right. Etc.

(The first 6 exceptions are written in the law. The 7th was added later when I realized it also applies. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...)

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by monkeywork on Sunday July 08, 2018 @05:56PM (#17486441)
In general terms I find that:

1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 = all rare (or only valid for brief moments in time).

You seem to be lumping #4 in for all cases which is a subjective view and I would argue isn't at all close to 95 or 99% of the time.

Thus I maintain that "very few very specific exceptions" applies and is not selective reading. I'd further suggest that you're pushing an agenda instead of being pragmatic and honest. It's fine if you don't like the laws as written, it's fine if you think things should be different in terms of how cyclists are treated on the road, however instead of trying to play loop hole games just get the laws changed.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by btrettel on Sunday July 08, 2018 @06:41PM (#17486676)
On what basis do you say these are rare? My experience as a cyclist differs strongly with your statements.

Many drivers don't seem to realize that cyclists take very different paths than drivers do. You might be thinking "where I drive, these exceptions usually don't apply" but you should instead be thinking about where cyclists ride. Yes, these paths do intersect, but a cyclist will typically pick lower stress paths.

Let's take my commute as an example, starting at my home:

1. Bike lane until I have to make a left turn. I take the travel lane to make the turn. Note that as far as I'm aware, using the left turn lane (i.e., taking the lane) is required by law, not merely allowed for cyclists. This is because turning left from the far right is obviously dangerous. Do you think left turns are rare? I don't.

2. Short road segment leading to a stop light. I take the lane here because the speed is low.

3. Right turn onto a road with signs and road markings saying that cyclists can take the lane. Despite the signs, I get harassed by road raging drivers here much more frequently than I'd like. (The reason for the signs seems to be a reminder of the previous #4 to drivers. The single lane is perhaps 9 feet wide and there are parked cars on the right. Definitely unsafe to ride far to the right. I've been nearly doored riding in the center of the lane here. But all of this is irrelevant, as I don't need to invoke #4 to ride in the lane center here.)

4. Three stop lights in a row. Again, I take the lane because I'm no slower than anyone else.

5. 15 mph speed limit for about 3/4 of a mile until the destination. I take the lane because I'm usually going faster than that. This path includes both left and right turns.

Often during my commute I'll pass other cyclists who are going slower than I am. It's not uncommon for me to pass motor vehicles too, especially in the 15 mph part.

So my commute includes all of these aside from 4, 5, and 6. I can't be "lumping #4 in for all cases" here.

I don't take the lane for my entire commute. But for the 2/3 of my commute that doesn't have bike lanes, it's easy to legally justify taking the regular travel lane.

And to be clear, here's my agenda: Cycling safely on the road. The main obstacle I see is dangerous drivers, and sometimes the solution is to take the lane. If you don't like that, encourage your fellow drivers to treat cyclists nicer.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by monkeywork on Sunday July 08, 2018 @09:17PM (#17487310)
This will be my last reply because this isn't a good faith discussion.

You're individual situation is not what I have experienced in a major city. The majority of cyclists are moving much slower than the flow of traffic, rarely over take each other (or other cars), use cycle lanes where available and stay over to the right when they can.

You may be an exception to that - and if so fantastic ... again I'm not saying not to take the lane, stop treating me like an adversary. Again if you're advocating for better safety and better relations between drivers and cyclists that's fantastic -- do it by getting the laws changed. Stop the "easy to legally justify" when you know that what you are doing most of time is pissing people off (rightly or wrongly). Get the laws changed, get them enforced and then culture changes to follow.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by btrettel on Sunday July 08, 2018 @10:22PM (#17487530)
> This will be my last reply because this isn't a good faith discussion.

I don't appreciate the accusation. I should remind you of the HN guidelines.

> Get the laws changed, get them enforced and then culture changes to follow.

The laws should change to be even more friendly to cyclists, but strictly speaking, the laws don't need to be changed. You seem to take a pessimistic interpretation of the law, in contrast to case law which tends to side with cyclists based on what I've read. Case law is law, period. Look up Trotwood v. Selz for one famous case. Here's another case where a cyclist was ticketed for riding in the center of a 13.5 ft lane, but beat the ticket:

https://www.news-press.com/story/news/local/2015/01/28/cycli...

As the laws in most states are based on the Uniform Vehicle Code, case law in one state is frequently cited in others states.

Unambiguous laws like those in Texas are obviously preferred, but again, are not necessary. And given that people tend not to believe me when I tell them that Texas allows cyclists to ride in any lane less than 14 feet wide, I'm not certain making the law less ambiguous really would help much. It comes down to changing attitudes, which is one thing I'm trying to do here. You believe I don't have the right to take the lane, and I'm trying to show you that the law says I do.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by u801e on Sunday July 08, 2018 @09:04PM (#17487248)
> In my opinion a cyclist should not be purposely using an entire lane and backing up traffic for faster moving vehicles

What is your opinion about drivers of cars lane-splitting when passing cyclists (when, in almost all states, it's illegal for motorcycles to lane-split when passing cars)?

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by u801e on Sunday July 08, 2018 @08:58PM (#17487230)
> This is often very illegal to do on a bicycle.

Most states, in the USA, base their vehicle laws on the uniform vehicle code (UVC). Though they state that those riding bicycles at less than the normal speed of traffic must ride as far right as practicable, they will list a number of exceptions for that requirement. One of those exceptions is if the lane is of substandard width which is defined as a lane that is too narrow for a car and cyclist to travel safely side by side [1]

Since a cyclist is about 2.5 feet wide[3] and many states have a 3 feet distance passing lane, the cyclist, even if they're riding further to the right will still need 2 feet to their right, their width, and 3 feet to their left. That adds up to 7 to 7.5 feet. Given that most surface street lanes are 10 feet wide[2] and passenger vehicle are about 6 feet wide[3], then it's not possible for a car and cyclist to safely travel side by side within the lane.

So the lane positioning you describe when driving a motorcycle also applies to bicycles.

[1] http://iamtraffic.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/UVC2000.pdf (section 11-1205 Position on Roadway item 3 -- page 185 of the pdf)

[2] https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/stre...

[3] https://nacto.org/publication/transit-street-design-guide/tr...

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by 1over137 on Sunday July 08, 2018 @12:17PM (#17484509)
Riding in the centre of a lane is illegal in many places.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by bluejekyll on Sunday July 08, 2018 @12:32PM (#17484615)
Where? In CA a cyclist has as much right to the road as a car. A mistake I often see cyclists make is to allow themselves to be stuck in a very narrow space between the center of the lane and the edge of the road/curb/parked cars.

When the road is too narrow, and there isn’t a safe place for a car to pass you, it’s important to consume the space in a way that makes it obvious to cars that they should not attempt to pass you.

Yes, there are some a-holes this pisses off because they had to slow down and lose 30 seconds of their day, but it’s far safer, and worth being honked at.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by monkeywork on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:28PM (#17484987)
https://losangelesbicyclelaw.com/california-bicycle-laws-ove...

"When there isn’t a bicycle lane, try to stay near the right curb. Unless you are moving faster than vehicle traffic, passing another bicycle, or making a left turn, you should typically stay close to the curb or road’s edge."

http://www.calbike.org/bicycling_in_california_sharing_the_r...

"The law says that people who ride bikes must ride as close to the right side of the road as practicable except under the following conditions: when passing, preparing for a left turn, avoiding hazards, if the lane is too narrow to share, or if approaching a place where a right turn is authorized."

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by btrettel on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:37PM (#17485048)
"If the lane is too narrow to share" can legally be invoked in most cases from what I understand, because most lanes cyclists ride in are narrow enough.

https://www.bikeleague.org/content/traffic-laws

> Bikes can share the same lane with other drivers. If a lane is wide enough to share with another vehicle (about 14 feet), ride three feet to the right of traffic. If the lane is not wide enough to share, “take the lane” by riding in the middle.

In Texas, 14 feet is explicitly written into the law. As a cyclist I frequently point this out to aggressive drivers. From what I understand there's often case law establishing this in states without an explicit law, but as I said, I live in Texas, so I'm not entirely familiar with other states' laws.

Quotes from Texas' law:

http://www.biketexas.org/en/infrastructure/texas-bicycle-law...

> (a) Except as provided by Subsection (b), a person operating a bicycle on a roadway who is moving slower than the other traffic on the roadway shall ride as near as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway, unless:

> [...]

> (4) the person is operating a bicycle in an outside lane that is:

> (A) less than 14 feet in width and does not have a designated bicycle lane adjacent to that lane; or

Also, in the US, my understanding is that cyclists can ride whereever they want if they are at or near the speed limit. Still doesn't stop some drivers from almost killing me because they think 20 mph in a 15 mph zone is too slow.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by monkeywork on Sunday July 08, 2018 @03:14PM (#17485559)
Parent asked specifically about CA not TX ... thus my reply.

I'm not commenting on what you or I feel is safe simply what is written. Debating the "IF's" under that I'm not interested in.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by btrettel on Sunday July 08, 2018 @03:49PM (#17485812)
Here's the relevant California law:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....

> 21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

> [...]

> (3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a “substandard width lane” is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

Seems similar to Texas aside from Texas having a more clear definition of when a lane can be shared. To me, it's obvious that a typical 10-11 foot lane can not be safely shared, particularly with 3 foot passing laws in place. I believe that was the motivation behind the 14 foot figure, which came from a court case as I recall. Go measure the width of the lanes you typically drive on and do the math. Also consider parking on the right side of the road (door zone). Knowledgeable cyclists keep a certain distance from doors because few drivers look before opening their doors.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by u801e on Sunday July 08, 2018 @09:14PM (#17487295)
> Go measure the width of the lanes you typically drive on and do the math.

For what it's worth, the typical lane width on a surface street is 10 feet [1], though in older designs, they may be up to 12 feet wide.

[1] https://nacto.org/publication/transit-street-design-guide/tr...

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by s0rce on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:41PM (#17485068)
While this appears to be the law, it seems to be unsafe. I bike in Oakland/East Bay and I've never heard of anyone getting cited for riding further over in the lane. I do this basically every day and I'd still suggest it. The only times I've heard of bikes getting in trouble is running red lights which is obviously dangerous and you shouldn't do.

I don't like to suggest going against the laws but if you ride near the curb or parked cars you are going to get doored and people will pass way too close. If you move over a bit they may get annoyed but you'll be safer.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by wool_gather on Sunday July 08, 2018 @03:27PM (#17485648)
Almost all states have this standard; some states have exceptions for safety or other cases (obvious one being making a left turn). There's a thorough rundown here: http://bicycledriving.org/law/guide-to-improving-laws although it may be out of date.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by ebikelaw on Sunday July 08, 2018 @03:11PM (#17485544)
Nobody has been cited for any kind of traffic infraction in Oakland in many years.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by s0rce on Sunday July 08, 2018 @03:45PM (#17485783)
Also true.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by monkeywork on Sunday July 08, 2018 @03:15PM (#17485566)
I'm not commenting on what you or I feel is safe simply what is written. Debating the "IF's" under that I'm not interested in.

I would suggest that if the law requires change instead of encouraging people to go around it encourage the actions needed to change it.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by kevinschumacher on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:39PM (#17485056)
> "people who ride bikes must ride as close to the right side of the road as practicable except under the following conditions: ... avoiding hazards, if the lane is too narrow to share, ..."

IME in urban cycling on US east-coast cities, if you're on a two-lane road with parking (one each direction), "as close to the right side of the road as practicable" means the center of the lane.

If you stray to the right, you're putting yourself in danger of car doors being opened, or pedestrians deciding to step into the street without looking (it happens a TON more than you'd think)

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by maxerickson on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:23PM (#17484957)
Michigan has a keep right except when necessary law. So you can take the lane to turn left or if you believe keeping right is dangerous, etc.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by 1over137 on Sunday July 08, 2018 @12:19PM (#17484524)
Expensive compared to a regular bike, but cheap compared to a car.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by justinator on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:22PM (#17484948)
Cheaper to own once bought too, yes? No gas or insurance, parking tickets, etc.

Get rid of your gym membership, too!

Food bill may be slightly higher, but you can haul bags of rice by the 10kg bag!

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by kzrdude on Sunday July 08, 2018 @03:44PM (#17485780)
The stressful part is that bikes are easy to lose, they get stolen. I ride a €80 used bike for that reason.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by justinator on Sunday July 08, 2018 @04:00PM (#17485872)
I have somehow avoided this problem! I got rid of my car almost 15 years ago, and have been on bikes 100% of the time since then. I've had 0 bikes stolen. 9 countries ridden in, so far!

The threat of getting hit by a car is the biggest hurtle of mass adoption of cycling in the US, in my opinion. I don't quite want to open up a discussion on what's going to bring about a sea-change, but having traveled to other countries where cycling is normalized into regular culture (France, Belgium, Switzerland, Netherlands), I have hopes that it can happen - at least in pockets, in the US. Living in Boulder, I feel I am in such a pocket, but I've still had some pretty close encounters, despite the fairly OK-ish cycling infrastructure, culture, and education.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by EpicEng on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:18PM (#17484916)
Depends on your definition of "regular bike". I have a road bike and a MTB, both of which cost a fair bit more than this one.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by pantalaimon on Monday July 09, 2018 @03:07AM (#17488457)
The city of Berlin currently has an initiative where they refund 33% of the purchase price for cargo bikes, but not more than 500€ for an unmotorised bike or 1000€ for an electric one.

However the number of possible applications for this year has already been exhausted within the first couple of days of the program.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by deltateam on Sunday July 08, 2018 @02:56PM (#17485450)
Some banks in San Francisco offer bike loans, like car loans specifically tailored for this.

There may be institutions near you that offer similar financing. With the right interest rate this would be cheaper than taking the bus.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by Symbiote on Sunday July 08, 2018 @12:47PM (#17484719)
Check the resale value. In Denmark, cargo bikes hold their value very well in the second hand market.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by rokhayakebe on Sunday July 08, 2018 @01:42PM (#17485076)
Re:Expensive

I guess it is an opportunity to buy a few from China and start a rent-by-the-hour service.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by stevenwoo on Sunday July 08, 2018 @08:01PM (#17487021)
This seems unlikely right now. Most major manufacturers of bicycles are in Taiwan and China (all brands around the world use them), but this is for bicycles built for a single person. Most of the frames are carbon fiber, a mold is built for various sizes and is used 1000's of times. For some reason cargo bikes are a different story and welded together from steel or aluminum (there might be a few carbon fiber ones, but I assume cost of r&d/manufacturing to be prohibitive to be competitive with metal for small lots). Alibaba has lots of generic bicycle frames but no cargo bikes.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by jacquesm on Sunday July 08, 2018 @07:04PM (#17486792)
> 1.5 or 2 thousand dollars!

There is such a thing as a second hand bike.

Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by brewdad on Sunday July 08, 2018 @07:25PM (#17486879)
At least in the US, the cargo bike market is still tiny. There are very few used cargo bikes to be had and the likely purchaser of one is the type who will ride it for decades until it finally costs more to repair than it was ever worth in the first place.
Re:Cargo bikes as symbolic markers of egalitarian gender roles by jacquesm on Sunday July 08, 2018 @07:38PM (#17486931)
The main reason cargo bikes are up for sale where I live is either because the kids get too big and have their own bikes or because the cargo bike ends up not being used after a spell of 'green thinking' and then people end up in bad weather or have a near miss with a car. (A near hit, according to Carlin.)

The one I ended up buying needed some tightening up of the main support bearing for the box (the weak point in any cargo bike with three wheels), adjustment of the brakes and shifter cable and it needed new lights. Since then it's seen a year of heavy service and it still rolls along just fine (took it for a 30km spin just today with a lot of gear and two kids in it).