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Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by twblalock on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @01:28PM (#17452050)
A lot of cities are making shortsighted deals to attract companies and sports teams, and that's bad.

On the other hand, if companies (and individuals) were not able to shop around for the tax regimes they prefer, there would be nothing to prevent extortionate taxation -- companies and people wouldn't be able to avoid it by going somewhere else, and governments would be able to do whatever they wanted.

On balance, I prefer competition in the regulatory and taxation space over the alternative. It limits the ability of governments to use taxation as a weapon or a form of expropriation. I'd rather live in a world where governments need to attract investment rather than coerce it.

Some might say that such competition would result in a race to the bottom, but we already have that competition and taxes are still quite high in many places -- a race to the bottom would have happened by now if it was going to happen.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by ErikVandeWater on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:26PM (#17452568)
> taxes are still quite high in many places

Taxes for corporations are not very high at all. Fortune 500 companies routinely pay a less than 0 income tax at the federal level[0], and state level income taxes max out at 12% [1].

The race to the bottom has happened for the big businesses that have leverage. Just not for the little guy.

[0] https://www.investopedia.com/news/how-fortune-500-companies-... [1] https://taxfoundation.org/state-corporate-income-tax-rates-b...

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by twblalock on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @03:00PM (#17452800)
> Taxes for corporations are not very high at all. Fortune 500 companies routinely pay a less than 0 income tax at the federal level[0], and state level income taxes max out at 12% [1].

The way you quoted that Investopedia article is a bit misleading -- it says it identified 18 companies in the Fortune 500 that paid zero tax, and that 258 companies paid an average of 21.2%.

18 out of 500 companies paying zero tax is a pretty low bar for saying that paying zero tax is routine.

Here's the quote from the article:

> The Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP), in a recent study, found that over the eight-year period from 2008 to 2015, 258 profitable Fortune 500 companies paid an average effective federal income tax rate of 21.2%. Over that same period, exactly 18 companies, including General Electric, International Paper, Priceline.com and PG&E Corp., avoided paying a single penny of federal income tax.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by civilitty on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @04:31PM (#17453404)
You're being no less misleading than he is.

> 258 profitable Fortune 500 companies paid an average effective federal income tax rate of 21.2%

So of the Fortune 500, 242 companies are unprofitable. Seriously? That ignores all the companies using legislation they helped craft to give themselves tax credits and the accounting tricks they use to bring their profits to "zero." Hell, the list itself is pathologically biased towards those businesses.

Seems the rest of the country has figured out Hollywood accounting.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by twblalock on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @04:48PM (#17453505)
It sounds like your problem is with the article, not with me. I did not misrepresent what the article said.
Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by ErikVandeWater on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @10:56AM (#17457587)
As a general rule, and this applies to me too, if the article is misleading and you quote the article, that misleading aspect of it should be noted in your comment. At least on Hacker News.
Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by vonmoltke on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @06:45PM (#17454175)
242 are unprofitable or do not have profit/tax information publicly available. The Fortune 500 only requires revenue numbers to be public for inclusion.
Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by refurb on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @03:14PM (#17452887)
There are many reasons for companies to pay no income, normally its carry loses forward.

You own article states the average rate in the US is 21.1%.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by toasterlovin on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @03:02PM (#17452815)
Keep in mind that the owners (shareholders) of Fortune 500 companies then pay an additional tax on distribution of profits (dividends).
Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by lovich on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:10PM (#17452425)
The government isn't a market. Treating it as such just leads to worse results for everyone except for the corporations and those wealthy enough to shop around. Everyone else who can't afford to just move across the country is SoL when basic services can no longer be paid for because there was a race to the bottom in tax rates
Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by sol_remmy on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:15PM (#17452479)
It is a market - that's the whole point of the federation of states system that the founding fathers put in place.

If your state has bad laws, you can go to a different state.

Using government as a market has worked very well for both marijuana legalization and gay marriage advocates.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by lovich on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @05:48PM (#17453837)
That's the US system, which is not everywhere and has been degraded heavily since the founding fathers of the US put it in place. Additionally moving from state to state was not a task most people could just do whenever they disagreed with the laws
Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by Fukkaudeku on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @02:59AM (#17455678)
> If your state has bad laws, you can go to a different state.

Uprooting your life and moving is nowhere near as trivial as dipshit market fetishists make it out to be for the majority of people.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by mikec3010 on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:58PM (#17452792)
It's not a very liquid market however. Because the lawyers ensure that the deals are legally binding. It's not like a city can declare bankruptcy and reset the no-tax deals.
Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by kabulykos on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:23PM (#17452542)
Positive results for social policy. Questionable results for economic policy.

Historically the latter has been driven by physiological particulars of a state — availability of farm land, coal mines, etc. Has anyone actually thought through how that transitions to a primarily services-based economy?

(Aside: if state governments are a market, then the Senate is socialism, lol)

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by hueving on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:21PM (#17452531)
Pretending a market doesn't exist by forming cartels isn't the answer either.

You can't vote in your small local city to tax 100% of the profits of a local company and force them to stay.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by tmpz22 on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:04PM (#17452379)
Honestly what qualifications do city officials have to make these kinds of ginormous financial decisions? Are super competent financial minds really at the heads of local governments?
Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by iamdave on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:12PM (#17452447)
They sometimes don't, which is why many cities delegate that out to agencies like local Convention Bureaus/Tourism Boards where the requisite brainpower is concentrated and applied-they do the numbers, make recommendations and proposals and elected officials chose to approve or deny what is presented to them.

Same way branches of the Federal Government delegates responsibilities and procedural obligations to the appropriate agencies.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by robotresearcher on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:11PM (#17452435)
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

https://richardlangworth.com/worst-form-of-government

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by mikec3010 on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @03:10PM (#17452862)
A democracy is rule by the people. We're living in the era of a government by the corporations, for the corporations.

I honestly cannot understand how companies have any representation or access to politicians. The closest access to the system should be persuading their own employees to vote favorably or write their congressman. Lobbying should be entirely illegal because we are on track to making Idiocracy a reality.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by twblalock on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @07:19PM (#17454323)
So, if you are a citizen you should have access to politicians, but if you start a company or get promoted to an executive position you suddenly get that access revoked?

It would be pretty difficult to restrict lobbying without running into problems with the First Amendment.

Most people who complain about corporate lobbying don't seem to mind when the EFF or the ACLU engages in lobbying, which indicates to me that they are really against corporate power, not lobbying per se.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by s2g on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @07:28PM (#17454365)
> It would be pretty difficult to restrict lobbying without running into problems with the First Amendment.

Then fuck the first amendment. Change it.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by killaken2000 on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @04:31PM (#17453406)
A democracy is rule by some* people
Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by fortythirteen on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:14PM (#17452471)
These deals are far from short sighted. What the city may lose in corporate taxes is more than regained through the increase in revenue from middle class population growth. Sales tax and automobile tax revenues skyrocket with the all the people moving in. Businesses open to support the new residents and are taxed. More homes are built and property values go up, meaning an increase in property tax.

Seriously, people who think giving a subsidy for a large tech company to move to your city is short sighted fail to understand the issue holistically. Nome a single American city that has seen it's overall revenue decrease from a large company with skilled workers moving into their area with a subsidy.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by slezakattack on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:34PM (#17452624)
I'd imagine a lot of the rural towns across middle America offering really large subsidies to build data centers that only employ 50 people probably don't see a return on their investment. [1] The city might be able to stimulate the local construction companies with some good business but the 50 employees aren't going to make up for the $250MM subsidy.

[1] https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2017/08/24/apple-latest-...

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by fortythirteen on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:42PM (#17452689)
How many other businesses are going to open branches, if not headquarters, in Des Moines to be close to the Apple data center? How many other companies can they now attract with larger employee counts, as a town that was chosen by Apple?

If I lived in that town, and wasn't a ruralist, I'd be thrilled with the city's decision.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by msbarnett on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:58PM (#17452788)
> How many other businesses are going to open branches, if not headquarters, in Des Moines to be close to the Apple data center?

Probably none? Almost everything that a Data Center needs to regularly purchase in volume is produced overseas. Micron and Seagate certainly aren't going to relocate to bumfuck Iowa.

What business are you picturing that would possibly gain anything from opening new headquarters in Des Moines to service a single data center?

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by fortythirteen on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @03:27PM (#17452964)
You're proving my point, in that you don't see the situation holistically. You're assuming all "business" is tech. How about all the maintenance based services? Even inside tech, do you think all issue management in a giant data center is going to be handled by those 50 employees and not a slew of outside contractors?
Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by kalleboo on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @09:35PM (#17454785)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/cloud-centers...

Apple’s data center is also supposed to create 250 indirect contracting jobs for maintenance and security. But many in this close-knit town of about 3,400 people — it essentially shuts down Friday nights for high school football — do not know anyone working at Apple.

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/why-data-centers-fail-t...

"People thought when Microsoft came in it would create jobs, but that's just not the case," said E.W. Gregory, the head of the local International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers union. Instead, they brought in outside technicians to do most of the work, he added. About 25 local residents got jobs, primarily as administrative assistants or janitorial staff, Gregory said.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by msbarnett on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @03:42PM (#17453077)
> You're proving my point, in that you don't see the situation holistically. You're assuming all "business" is tech. How about all the maintenance based services? Even inside tech, do you think all issue management in a giant data center is going to be handled by those 50 employees and not a slew of outside contractors?

I think that 50 full time employees are sufficient to manage the hardware maintenance issues that typically arise in a large data center, yeah. That's more-or-less the only reason to even have that many people on staff in a data center.

Building and A/C maintenance -- it's only one large building, and Des Moines has existing contractors fully capable of performing that kind of routine, infrequent servicing. This might stimulate one or two new hires at one or two firms, but I sincerely doubt it will require any more than that.

Literally nothing about this data center screams "slew of outside contractors" let alone "whole companies moving to Des Moines" to me.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by cozzyd on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @06:10PM (#17453969)
There are certainly businesses that will attract other business. For example, something like an Amazon HQ2 conceivably might, for some level of investment, break even in a cost-benefit analysis. A data center is not going to do that though. Not sure politicians can tell the difference.
Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by mikec3010 on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @03:16PM (#17452896)
> Businesses open to support the new residents and are taxed.

But why? Why should mom-n-pop have a higher fiscal hurdle than MegaCorp? If tax breaks are so good, why not give them to everyone?

> What the city may lose in corporate taxes is more than regained through the increase in revenue from middle class population growth

Then MegaCorp shouldn't have any qualms about entering into a binding agreement that the economic bounty will come, or else MegaCorp pays a penalty equal to that bounty. I wonder why they don't do that?

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by fortythirteen on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @03:30PM (#17452989)
> Why should mom-n-pop have a higher fiscal hurdle than MegaCorp?

They don't. They have normal taxation. They wouldn't even have the opportunity to make profits, and hence be taxed, if the clientele never moved into the area.

> Then MegaCorp shouldn't have any qualms about entering into a binding agreement that the economic bounty will come, or else MegaCorp pays a penalty equal to that bounty. I wonder why they don't do that?

Because they're not shitty businesspeople? Remove the incentive and there's no motivation. It's basic behavioral economics.

Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by mikec3010 on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @04:37PM (#17453433)
So only "shitty business people" fully back up their promises? Then maybe the cities should reneg on their tax deals too?
[dead]
Re:Cities don't have to offer huge subsidies to companies li... by sctb on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @01:37PM (#17458468)
Would you please comment civilly and substantively? We've asked before and need you to start following the guidelines more closely.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html