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Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by konschubert on Monday July 02, 2018 @07:06AM (#17440685)
Looking at aerial photography of Melbourne, it there are an awful lot of cars for a city that takes its liveability seriously. I can't imagine that bikes were taking MORE space than the cars?
Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by guidedlight on Monday July 02, 2018 @07:18AM (#17440725)
Melbourne has the world's largest tram network. It has a massive train 869km train network too, plus current construction of a new $10 billion tunnel in the city center.

Cars are allowed in the city center, but they are mostly commercial vehicles (taxis, delivery drivers, construction, etc).

Most people use public transport to commute to and from work.

Many bike share schemes have been tried, but are not popular in Melbourne because trams are free and bicycles require helmets by law.

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by megablast on Monday July 02, 2018 @07:20AM (#17440738)
> Cars are allowed in the city center, but they are mostly commercial vehicles

This is not true at all, a ridiculous number of people drive to work and park in the city. Over 60% of all traffic is private cars.

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by keir-rex on Monday July 02, 2018 @07:49AM (#17440870)
They also get dumped every where. The oBikes look awful too. Ofo bikes are of a reasonable quality but obikes on the other hand have never tempted me to use them.
Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by jessaustin on Monday July 02, 2018 @07:57AM (#17440916)
...bicycles require helmets by law.

So much for taking livability seriously.

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by stevesimmons on Monday July 02, 2018 @08:48AM (#17441169)
Helmets are for those who take livability seriously!

I grew up in Melbourne. I've worn bike helmets since I was a kid. They have been compulsory since 1990. It's not a big deal. Everyone knows it is just common sense, just like wearing seatbelts in a car.

Over the years, I have had bike crashes and hit my head on the road three times. The one time I was seriously injured was in Amsterdam, where no one wears helmets. My front wheel jammed and I fell over the handlebars face-first onto the road. I had to go to hospital for stitches. I was very, very lucky I didn't end up brain-damaged.

Helmets reduce serious brain trauma by 50-60%. That's well worth the small inconvenience for me.

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by madeofpalk on Monday July 02, 2018 @09:58AM (#17441636)
I'm Australian so wearing a helmet is second nature to me, but the benefits, especially around mandatory helmet laws, are apparently quite debatable.

Importantly, requiring helmets deters many normal people from biking in the first place — in Australia, bike commuting rates plummeted when mandatory helmet laws went into effect

While it's obvious that wearing a helmet reduces damage if you're in an accident, there's studies suggesting that wearing a helmet makes you more likely to be in an accident in the first place - car drivers drive more dangerously around helmeted riders, and helmeted riders ride more dangerously.

It's all very interested and not as straight forward as I (or maybe you) would have thought.

Studies and factions mentioned are from here: https://www.vox.com/2014/5/16/5720762/stop-forcing-people-to...

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by CaptainZapp on Monday July 02, 2018 @09:19AM (#17441351)
I hated the concept of bike helmets, which are not mandated here.

After having had three falls and having been very lucky I totally reversed that sentiment and always wear a helmet now.

It may be less freewheeling and comfortable. But I figured that maybe next time I'm less lucky, so it's definitely worth it.

I didn't wear a helmet when renting a bike in Japan. But I've seen nobody wear a helmet there.

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by ghaff on Monday July 02, 2018 @09:27AM (#17441418)
I suspect this is one of those things people just won’t agree on. On the one hand there are those who argue it’s common sense safety and a proper matter for laws. On the other there are those arguing it’s wholly unnecessary (look at Amsterdam!) and requiring it will make fewer people cycle especially in the case of bike shares.
Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by stevesimmons on Monday July 02, 2018 @06:55PM (#17446064)
Having lived in both Melbourne and Amsterdam, the two crucial differences are in the Netherlands:

1) almost all Dutch drivers are also cyclists. They know how bikes behave, how it feels to be a cyclist around cars, and are therefore far more conscientious of bikes

2) in an accident involving a car and a bike, Dutch road laws have a high presumption that the car is at fault.

In Amsterdam, I don't worry about a car running me over. In London and Melbourne I do, and so never ride there without a helmet.

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by isostatic on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:25PM (#17443009)
> Helmets reduce serious brain trauma by 50-60%.

When? In what specific situation?

He cited evidence from the University of Bath that suggests that wearing a helmet may even put cyclists at greater risk. The research showed that drivers get around 3 inches closer to cyclists who wear helmets because they perceive them as safer. [0]

So it sounds like you're more likely to get hit when you wear a helmet, that can't be safe. Why don't cyclists wear a proper fitting motorcycle helmet if helmets are safer?

One thing that does correlate -- the more cyclists there are, the fewer accidents per mile. [1]

Something else that may be uncomfortable reading, Australian helmet laws reduce levels of cycling [2] (and explain why cycle hire schemes in Melbourne don't work).

The scheme, which is costing taxpayers $5.5 million over four years, has been crippled by Melbourne's compulsory helmet laws. Bike share schemes are established in 135 cities around the world, but Melbourne's is the only one operating under such strict laws. [3]

If more cyclists is good (and I'd argue it is - as it means fewer drivers, and has the crowd benefit), you need to get rid of these helmet laws - they do more harm than good [4]

[0] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10866273/Cycle-... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/may/07/cycling... [2] https://theconversation.com/australian-cycling-boom-nope-its... [3] https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/a-new-helmet-to-... [4] https://theconversation.com/make-helmets-optional-to-double-...

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by jazoom on Monday July 02, 2018 @08:38AM (#17441117)
As far as I know that's an Australia-wide thing. It's certainly the same in Queensland.
Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by guidedlight on Monday July 02, 2018 @08:34AM (#17441091)
Helmets are $5 in Melbourne, people still won’t wear them.
Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by jessaustin on Monday July 02, 2018 @08:41AM (#17441131)
Cyclists won't wear helmets because cycling doesn't require helmets. Imposing helmets by law is a way to reduce cycling, and those who write those regulations know it.
Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by ponyfleisch on Monday July 02, 2018 @08:59AM (#17441246)
Are you making the argument that bicycle helmets are ineffective or that people should be free to choose for themselves what risks they are willing to take? The former is a dubious claim and the latter is likely a fringe position.

Given that, suggesting that helmet laws are a plot to reduce cycling puts you firmly in conspiracy theory territory in my book.

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by jessaustin on Monday July 02, 2018 @03:11PM (#17444541)
In any particular collision, a helmeted brain is more protected than a non-helmeted brain, although because of factors like risk compensation and the effect of overall cycling frequency on road safety that is completely beside the point.

Of course adults should be free to choose for themselves what risks they are willing to take. The relevant populations are at so much lower risk for any number of misfortunes than their ancestors that helmet fans' pearl-clutching on their behalf is completely misplaced. But this too is beside the point.

Try reading my two sentences again, this time without your "conspiracy everywhere" glasses. The following propositions, which comprise the entirety of that post, are all literally true: "cycling doesn't require helmets", "helmet laws reduce cycling", "those who write helmet laws know that helmet laws reduce cycling". Every study of the effect of helmet laws shows that they reduce cycling. There might be some dangerously uninformed people writing cycling regulations, but most will have seen the relevant studies.

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by ponyfleisch on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @01:05AM (#17447677)
> Of course adults should be free to choose for themselves what risks they are willing to take.

It's not universally the case though (see: drugs, seatbelts), and if you think it should be, you're in a small minority with that opinion. I think it's fair to consider externalities and then make laws that strike a nice balance between individual and collective interests. Bicycle helmets are a very small inconvenience, so i find it entirely appropriate to make them mandatory.

> "those who write helmet laws know that helmet laws reduce cycling"

Right, but that doesn't mean it's their motivation. That assumption, given that there are other prohibitions on dangerous behaviour, is a conspiracy theory.

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by jessaustin on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @08:37AM (#17449630)
...you're in a small minority with that opinion.

Maybe in your community I would be? Where I live, it would be hard to find anyone who didn't feel adults should take responsibility for the consequences of their own actions. I really don't understand this compulsion to measure oneself against the herd, however. "Oh no some randoms I've never met might disagree with me!" Why would I care about that? Perhaps you're not so experienced with reasoned discussion, but "that's fringe" and "that's conspiracy" are not really arguments. By focusing on these propositions you've conceded the factual claims I've made, which by themselves really settle the question of whether helmets ought to be mandatory for cycling.

That assumption... is a conspiracy theory.

I haven't made such an assumption. I would still question the opposite assumption, however. Are you certain that no one values the primacy of the automobile in traffic?

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by ponyfleisch on Wednesday July 04, 2018 @02:30AM (#17455606)
> Where I live, it would be hard to find anyone who didn't feel adults should take responsibility for the consequences of their own actions.

This is a very general statement and probably won't hold up in a number of specific cases, such as the total legalisation of the drug trade. But i do believe that "people" (as in: the majority) draw that line in a culture specific way and it appears that the US leans more towards personal freedom than the rest of "the west".

However, this discussion was about laws in Australia. I think it's reasonable to assume that the laws reflect the majority opinion. Now i'm not discounting fringe opinions in general and i certainly don't think the majority is always right. But in this case it's relevant because it offers a much simpler explanation for why helmet laws exist: because people living in those jurisdictions overwhelmingly want them.

Let me turn the argument around to illustrate: Not wearing helmets increases head injuries, and the people in power know that. Having a pro-helmet-law stance, it would make sense to see a conspiracy between lawmakers and health care providers (more brain damaged people, more revenue!). It seems much more reasonable to assume that places without helmet laws don't have them because people living there draw the line between personal freedoms and collective interests differently.

> I haven't made such an assumption.

Well, you wrote "Imposing helmets by law is a way to reduce cycling" and i really can't parse it any other way than to mean that the sole (or at least main) motivation for helmet laws is to reduce cycling. I stand by my words.

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by ghaff on Monday July 02, 2018 @09:31AM (#17441445)
I don’t think it’s at all a fringe position that adults should have considerable latitude about personal safety choices. That said not everyone agrees with that and that, rather than reducing cycling, is the impetus behind helmet laws.
Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by madeofpalk on Monday July 02, 2018 @10:00AM (#17441654)
There's also the part of the equation that while decided to wear a helmet is a personal choice, the negative impacts affect the taxpayer in Australia due to having a reasonably good public health system.
Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by ghaff on Monday July 02, 2018 @11:03AM (#17442216)
There are certainly externalities to individual health and safety decisions. I find prohibiting “dangerous” activities (how about rock climbing? Say) a pretty slippery slope.
Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by ponyfleisch on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @12:58AM (#17447658)
Wouldn't it follow then that all drugs, even the potent opiates, should be legal to produce, sell and consume? I know some people think that way, but it's a fringe position.
Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by isostatic on Monday July 02, 2018 @11:47AM (#17442653)
It's crazy, I saw a pedestrian walking down the street the other way, didn't have a helmet on. It's like she had a death wish.
Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by justinclift on Monday July 02, 2018 @08:51AM (#17441188)
Somewhat related to this, "lane filtering" on motorbikes is also legal in Melbourne.

That helps converting some car users to motorbikes or scooters instead, as driving to work is generally much faster than in a car (for Melbourne traffic anyway).

Re:OBike Refund in Singapore, Australia, and Malaysia by burger_moon on Monday July 02, 2018 @10:27AM (#17441898)
I wish they would legalize this in the US too (outside of just California). It makes it much safer for the rider to lane filter during rush hour than sitting in congestion.