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Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by lowdest on Friday June 29, 2018 @01:14PM (#17425902)
>He can’t wrap his mind around why orders for 13,076.389 Tethers keep popping up on Kraken. “No human would enter that order,” he said. “It doesn’t make sense.”

I'm a small time automated trader, and I've made many thousands of orders that extend out to 5 or more decimal places. There's nothing unusual about this to me. My code will take a single uneven dollar amount and make X equal trades out of it. Every few days I add an uneven amount of profit back into the original amount and then I'm trading a new 5+ decimal place dollar amount.

>On May 9, eight sell trades for 13,076.389 Tethers each occurred in succession over 16 seconds, yet Tether’s price was unchanged at 0.999. The next trade—for just 75 Tethers—pushed the price up 0.0001.

Is this not just the bid-ask spread? Of course sell trades and buy trades execute at different prices, that's how a limit order book works.

The concern around Tether may well be justified, but some of the things I've seen presented as evidence suggest a lack of understanding about what normal exchange activity can look like.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by bitreality on Friday June 29, 2018 @01:52PM (#17426204)
I think the underlying point of the article is that Tether's price movement is not possibly natural. It should often trade at a premium or discount. The fact that it trades so tightly with the USD is likely a huge sign of foul play. The obvious answer is that Bitfinex AKA Tether is using wash trading and other tactics to keep Tether trading at $1.00.

There is just not enough liquidity on Tether for it to follow the USD so closely. It has been very difficult to sell Tether for USD to Bitfinex AKA Tether over the past year. For awhile, any normal user had no option to withdraw USD from the platform at all. Their banks were completely shut off from the system.

You can argue there were people who were on the inside with Tether / Bitfinex and were able to sell Tether to them. I think there may have been some individuals / organizations that had the ability to send and receive fiat to Bitfinex, but I highly doubt they do enough volume to fully stabilize Tether 1:1 to the USD.

Look at Bitcoin over the past 1-2 years. It is completely common for it to trade at a 3-5% spread between USD exchanges. Don't get me started on exchanges in other fiat currencies. The spreads have been known to reach 10%+. These spreads can also be arbitraged by anybody, but they still appear. So I strongly doubt that Tether is a special case.

If Tether was trading on a real market, it would certainly not follow the price of USD 1:1.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by aeternus on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:31PM (#17427097)
The tight trading with USD may actually be an indication of trust in Tether. It indicates that at least one entity has enough confidence that it is worth exactly $1 that they are willing to buy or sell whenever it fluctuates from that price.

If that trust is ever lost, or there are questions about solvency, I'd expect the price of Tether to drop very quickly.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by aplummer on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:35PM (#17427148)
There _are_ questions about solvency though, and it hasn’t dropped.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by londons_explore on Saturday June 30, 2018 @03:26PM (#17432325)
It only takes one person really sure about Tether to have a bot which simply always trades to keep the price at 1 USD.

That person might be an insider (they know tether is legit, so any deviation from $1 is a moneymaking opportunity), or it could be an outsider who believes the hype.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by gcbw2 on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:39PM (#17427170)
The very first paragraph opens comparing this to "defying gravity". Your assumption were true it would make it very easy for others to win at all times. Think about it for a second: there is someone buying and selling, consistently at known price points.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by 781 on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:41PM (#17427693)
> Think about it for a second: there is someone buying and selling, consistently at known price points.

This happens all the time in the stock market. Look at the SPY stock which tracks the S&P 500 index. At everypoint in time, anyone can compute exactly what value this stock should have. Any deviation from this consistent and known price point is immediately traded away by arbitrators.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by ForHackernews on Saturday June 30, 2018 @05:25AM (#17430129)
The difference is index funds actually hold the underlying basket of assets for the index they track.

Does Tether actually hold one real United States Dollar for every USDT they issue? If so, they sure haven't convincingly demonstrated it by continually lying about being regularly audited (they have never published a real audit) and refusing to allow anyone to redeem their USDT with Tether to get back a USD.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by trophycase on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:34PM (#17427139)
How is it foul play? I arbitrage USD and USDT differences because, historically speaking, a price disparity between the two has never persisted for more than a few days. I may be at risk if tether is actually not backed, but as it stands, there (was) enough money to be made arbitraging that it didn't matter.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by wycs on Saturday June 30, 2018 @02:27PM (#17432018)
Boy is this risky.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by CyberDildonics on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:55PM (#17427351)
How do you arbitrage differences if you can't get USD out of it?
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by wmf on Friday June 29, 2018 @07:24PM (#17428622)
Maybe he's arbitraging over time, not space.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by A2017U1 on Friday June 29, 2018 @08:02PM (#17428762)
From the article:

> Kraken is among very few markets worldwide that let investors trade U.S. dollars for Tether and vice versa.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by dahdum on Friday June 29, 2018 @08:23PM (#17428837)
There is little reason to sell tether at a discount if you have significant amounts. You'd usually be better off just buying ether/bitcoin on Polo/BFX/etc and transferring to GDAX to sell directly for USD.

Same goes for buying it. In my experience, it only rises above $1.03 when liquidity is low and the BTC/USDT price diverges from BTC/USD enough to make arbitrage possible.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by _trampeltier on Saturday June 30, 2018 @06:57AM (#17430349)
The BTC-USD price diffwrwnce between exchanges is usually way below 0.5%. The difference between the big exchanges is even smaller, usually something like 0.0x%
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by vostok on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:07PM (#17428970)
> Look at Bitcoin over the past 1-2 years. It is completely common for it to trade at a 3-5% spread between USD exchanges.

This has not been the case for a long time.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by windows_tips on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:12PM (#17428982)
Value of Tether is nominally $1, right? So why would you expect it to significantly deviate from that value?
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by rjbwork on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:16PM (#17428990)
Because even though they say that it's backed by a dollar per tether, there's literally nothing that is keeping it from being traded like a speculative security like BitCoin and other cryptos are.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by windows_tips on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:37PM (#17429041)
Why would anyone speculate it to be worth more than a $1 though?
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by kyrieeschaton on Friday June 29, 2018 @11:16PM (#17429300)
Liquidity premium on having your nominal dollar already in crypto for trading; liquidity premium of being able to send stable nominal dollars via crypto mechanisms.

Consider, why do some bonds trade at negative interest rates?

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by windows_tips on Monday July 02, 2018 @11:48PM (#17447353)
seems like that premium would be tiny
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by this_user on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:38PM (#17428375)
> suggest a lack of understanding about what normal exchange activity can look like.

So you are suggesting that the experts who were cited in the article, whose field of expertise is this very thing, do not understand how markets work?

Meanwhile you don't seem to understand why it is remarkable that the market can absorb a huge order that should move the market because of its sheer size while much smaller order have a much larger impact. When a buy order of quantity 37.5 moves the price by 0.0002, but the following buy order of quantity 13,076.389, that is almost 350 times the size of the previous order, moves the market by half of that, something is very strange about the liquidity situation.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by lend000 on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:00PM (#17428948)
These "experts" are just journalists who wouldn't be writing articles if they had enjoyed any success analyzing orderbooks. This article is perhaps the most clueless garbage I've read on the topic of crypto, and there is a LOT of cringeworthy stuff out there. What's that saying about how people scoff at the inaccuracies when reading about something in the news they know intimately, and then read the rest of the paper as though it's going to be any better?

> Meanwhile you don't seem to understand why it is remarkable that the market can absorb a huge order that should move the market because of its sheer size while much smaller order have a much larger impact.

Is the concept of an orderbook so foreign to non-finance/math people? Firstly, 13k is not a "huge" order. Secondly, someone clearly just had a somewhat large maker order placed at $1 for the example cited which absorbed a few orders, and the book was thinner for a subsequent price movement (liquidity vacuum). Explained by the market being low volume, low volatility, likely dominated by a handful of traders/algos, and plain old random variation (individual players' orders have a more significant effect in low volume markets like Tether/USD). It's also important to note that psychological price levels (like 1.0) tend to accumulate larger walls as a result of human nature. For Tether in particular, it makes sense that the price never breaches 1.0. It's an easy short above 1.0, as it is impossible for Tether to ever become worth more than the price it is pegged at, whereas it could become worth less if it were insolvent. So there is probably a huge wall sitting there on every exchange.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by neom on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:37PM (#17429042)
The part I'm confused about is if you look at order size to volume, isn't it weird that price flux doesn't seem to match the spay in order size? Also, is tether formally a fixed-exchange-rate system, if so how is the pegging being mechanized?
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by lend000 on Saturday June 30, 2018 @04:23AM (#17430004)
You can't read into it much for such a low volume exchange. It's akin to a small sample size resulting in behavior that can stray farther from the mean. This article also makes a glaring omission of using the Tether/USD index price (since Kraken is not the only exchange trading the pair), so prices can move in the market without any volume occurring on Kraken, if the traders shuffle the orderbook before arbitragers make trades.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by wpietri on Friday June 29, 2018 @10:31PM (#17429192)
Did you read the article? These experts are experts. Including: "New York University Professor Rosa Abrantes-Metz and former Federal Reserve bank examiner Mark Williams"
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by lend000 on Saturday June 30, 2018 @04:19AM (#17429996)
Those references are not the authors, and keep in mind that professors usually would not be professors if they had a sufficient understanding of markets to beat them. No one cited in the article has seen a live exchange with as low of volume as Tether/USD, simply because such low volume exchanges are typically considered irrelevant. Lower volume == fewer players == higher impact of a smaller number of traders == attribution of the inefficiencies of a small group of traders to market-wide patterns == clueless articles like this one.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by wpietri on Saturday June 30, 2018 @07:51AM (#17430507)
They are experts. The article is written by skilled financial journalists based on the work of experts.

I used to write trading systems for market makers, and still have friends in the business. I also have friends who are professors, including a finance professor. Trading is not really about market knowledge; it's a skill and an orientation. Being a professor is much more about knowledge, but it's also about skills and orientation. They're different kinds of people, doing very different work.

Your "the only people who can possibly understand this are the ones who agree with me" approach is essentially religious thinking. You're making an argument from authority, except the only cited expert is you, an anonymous person with no credentials and no provable experience.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by lend000 on Saturday June 30, 2018 @06:42PM (#17433127)
Consider the analogy of playing tennis against a tennis commentator (who wasn't formerly a professional). Sure, the commentator understands the game at a deeper level than your average joe, but it's a very different kind of understanding/skill from the pros making the money. I'd give myself better odds to beat the commentator / SE working for a market maker than the pro / fund manager.

This applies to journalism at large, but for market and trading analysis in particular, professors fit into this category much more than in other fields (such as engineering, where there is still a disconnect between academia and industry). In trading, anyone who truly understands the market at such a powerful level is using that knowledge to make money. It's a complex adaptive system, so publishing financially actionable research in the field is usually pointless because the market adapts. In my anecdotal experience, even engineers / employees of quant funds like yourself do not often really understand the market when they were focused on some specific piece of infrastructure / a part of someone else's larger design. When left alone without the infrastructure and systems they were used to, breaking even is often their best case scenario.

But this is all beside the point. Instead of personal attacks, getting defensive, and bowing to credentials, consider thinking for yourself and addressing the content, if you reply.

Source: I'm an anonymous professional trader who beats the market.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by wpietri on Monday July 09, 2018 @03:05PM (#17492609)
You claim to be a professional trader who claims to beat the market. I understand why you believe this paints you as somebody whose expertise we should trust. But hopefully you can see why to me it's just another anonymous person who claims they know better than everybody else.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by lowdest on Saturday June 30, 2018 @01:43AM (#17429641)
I'm suggesting one or more of the authors and whoever proofread this article before publication do not understand limit order books, and they therefore don't understand this particular market at the micro level.

Everything they have highlighted in the red and green graphs in the latter half of the article can be explained by a completely ordinary order flow. Much weirder stuff happens in the order books every day: iceberg orders that appear small but are bottomless, giant walls that retreat as soon as they're touched, spoof orders that are placed and canceled repeatedly. None of that funny stuff is in evidence here.

Let's focus on one particular error from the article and I'll explain the misunderstanding behind it. Take a look at the diagram titled "Tether-USD Trades on May 9 From 20:59:13 to 21:01:00 GMT." If you don't understand the two prices of a limit order book, you might think that diagram shows 7 different price movements. But in fact, there are only two price movements: when the Ask price moves from .9991 to .9992, and when the Ask price moves from .9992 back to .9991. Something to remember about limit order books: market buy orders will execute at the Ask price, which is at least one increment higher than the Bid price. Market sell orders will execute at the Bid price, which is at least one increment lower than the Ask price. Why can't the Ask and Bid prices be the same? If you had a limit buy order on the books at $100 and a limit sell order on the books also at $100, they match to each other, cancelling each other out until only one type of order (buy or sell) is left at the contested price. When looking at a price history graph like this, what is actually plotted is the Last Executed Price. If the Bid and Ask prices are completely static, the price history will show oscillation between the Bid and Ask prices as market buy orders and market sell orders are executed in turn. The gap between the Bid and Ask prices at a point in time in the order book is called the Bid-Ask Spread. An important point is that when the Bid and Ask are not moving, the Last Price graph will still show oscillation across the Bid-Ask Spread.

So now look again to the diagram caption: "Multiple sell orders of exactly 13,076.389 are executed, and the price didn’t budge..." What this means is that there was more than 183,076.46 in buy limit orders at the Bid price of $0.9990, which is fairly typical to witness. Certainly not evidence of manipulation or even out of the ordinary. The second caption "...but a buy order of just 75 moved the price up .0001" is more problematic. Neither the Bid price nor Ask price has actually moved in response to the size 75 order, this is just the normal oscillation across the Bid-Ask Spread. Furthermore the minimum price increment on Kraken is 0.0001, so the minimum any buy order following a sell order can move the Last Price is 0.0001 (barring a simultaneous drop in the Ask price.) Let me repeat: Unless the Ask price drops, any and all buy orders following a sell must move this price graph upward by at least .0001 by definition. This appears to be lost on the authors, who highlight the .0001 move upward as something notable, an outsized price move for such a small order. They might be shocked to discover that a size 0.01 order would also move the price graph upward as much as the size 75 order.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by kenneth on Saturday June 30, 2018 @10:22PM (#17433739)
Very well explained — I wish this was the top comment on this entire page. These things are perhaps not entirely intuitive, but once you understand how an exchange really works they are quite obvious.

It's disappointing that Bloomberg, an ordinarily reputable news source when it comes to financial writing, missed the mark by so much on this topic.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by lowdest on Sunday July 01, 2018 @05:30PM (#17437723)
Thanks. This is what I would have liked to write the first time, but I was about 12 hours late with the follow up and missed the front page activity.

I was also disappointed that this article made it to publishing on Bloomberg for the same reason.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by arisAlexis on Saturday June 30, 2018 @01:23PM (#17431695)
yes it's pretty common for "experts in crypto" to write complete nonesense just becUse there are no experts in this field yet
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by theptip on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:02PM (#17427850)
> I've made many thousands of orders that extend out to 5 or more decimal places.

The point wasn't that a trade containing that number happened to pop up. It was that the specific number 13076.389 was in the top 50 traded amounts on the exchange.

You'd expect there to be on average the same number of trades for 13076.388 and 13076.390 as there were for 13076.389, but that's not what the numbers show. Unless there is something special about the number 13076.389.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by lowdest on Saturday June 30, 2018 @03:17AM (#17429862)
What I meant was that my code makes hundreds or thousands of trades with the exact same extended decimal number. I'll use that trade size for several days and hundreds of trades per day before I update to another trade size.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by theptip on Saturday June 30, 2018 @01:43PM (#17431781)
Ah, got you. That could be it, but then why aren't there artifacts like that in the USD-BTC chart? On that one the prominent trade amounts are 1, 0.1, 0.01, ... as you would expect.

Could be that for USD-USDT algorithmic trading is dominant, vs, human trading being dominant in USD-BTC, in which case arbitrary amounts like 1, 0.1,.. would be less common for the USDT case. I'm not sure how to assess this though.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by lowdest on Saturday June 30, 2018 @03:29PM (#17432342)
That's basically my guess. Since volume is comparatively low on Kraken USD-USDT, an algorithmic trader with a large bankroll clearly stands out. It might be one of the parties with a financial interest in maintaining the USD parity, or it could just be someone placing bets that the parity will continue.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by Declanomous on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:01PM (#17428179)
Floating point inaccuracy in software someone built to trade?
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by deltateam on Friday June 29, 2018 @01:47PM (#17426163)
> The concern around Tether may well be justified, but some of the things I've seen presented as evidence suggest a lack of understanding about what normal exchange activity can look like.

MOST of the concerns I've seen about Tether are based on a lack of understanding about how most markets work.

Its funny to me because the reasons I don't use Tether have to do with it being centralized in general, (with the assumption that they are full reserve). The systemic risk fractional reserve fear is why other people are concerned about Tether, and it doesn't really matter? That company is a huge target either way! If they seek to prove their reserve by an accountant, then their banking partner gets exposed and will close Tether's accounts, or that bank will be cut off by other banks.

This is what has happened in the past, when Wells Fargo cut them out of their international wires route.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by wmf on Friday June 29, 2018 @07:26PM (#17428630)
They finally solved the banking problem by starting their own bank, although you still can't get USD in or out for some reason.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by Solar19 on Saturday June 30, 2018 @01:32AM (#17429621)
They started a bank? What is it called? What country? I thought they were having trouble in Hong Kong or Taiwan.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by wmf on Saturday June 30, 2018 @07:52PM (#17433325)
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by unclebucknasty on Friday June 29, 2018 @01:47PM (#17426165)
>No human would enter that order

Yeah, even if this is code vs. human, it's just as easy for the code to round or vary the amounts.

Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by gcbw2 on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:48PM (#17428105)
More interesting is why the purchase orders at usually at >=$1.0, and then there are sale orders at =<$0.999. Why someone would automate something to lose money so consistently? I guess this is what the author was calling out, not the numbers per-se. The numbers just point that the buy/sell are the same entity, human or not is irrelevant for the number. But the behaviour is the odd part.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by choffman on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:04PM (#17428200)
It could be someone that likes to use specific numbers as a "calling card" of sorts.
Re:Crypto Coin Tether Defies Logic on Kraken’s Market, Raisi... by tomtimtall on Saturday June 30, 2018 @02:57AM (#17429829)
What the hell is going on in this thread? Yea, the odd repeated trades are just someone who likes that specific number.... and the reason they don’t move the market might just be that no one else likes that number.... and maybe all of the suspecius activity is just a supernova reflected off of swamp gas.

We get it, your one of the people who’ve been loosing tons on crypto the last couple of months. But maybe you can reverse the course by arguing away all clear signs of market manipulation with silly stories. Or maybe it would be good to get the spotlight on the bad actors of the market so they can be exposed and the space can move forwards. Mtgox didn’t end crypto, neither will the fall of tether.