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Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by peterwwillis on Thursday June 28, 2018 @06:16PM (#17420937)
> The homeless will continue to do whatever they can get away with, and those of us with higher incomes will grumble a bit and pay the taxes. The only solution I've seen that has a chance to change this is to come down hard on poor public transit behavior, perhaps by putting actual people on the buses with the specific job of cracking down on the drunk/high/piss soaked/etc types, in an effort to improve the quality of the service to the point that the middle-upper income groups uses it again.

Talk about missing the forest for the trees. Or should I say, the city for the abandoned human beings.

If you aren't taking public transit because you don't like the homeless people on the buses, how about you help them become less homeless or have a place to stay, rather than just shooing them away?

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by AcerbicZero on Thursday June 28, 2018 @06:49PM (#17421106)
This seems disingenuous at best. Why are you commenting on HN when you could be out helping these homeless anyway? Is your time, happiness, etc, really worth more than their lives?

https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-eth...

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by Karrot_Kream on Thursday June 28, 2018 @07:30PM (#17421317)
That's not what GP is saying. GP says that public transit is transit with your neighbors. If your neighbors are smelly junkies, then something is wrong with your community. Shoving people into cars to avoid the homeless is orthogonal to solving crowding issues.

This issue only comes up in SF because of the large wealth disparity between the upper-middle class and everyone below them. Here, the upper-middle pays for the option to remove themselves from public services.

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by mrhappyunhappy on Thursday June 28, 2018 @08:39PM (#17421592)
Oh please the issue comes up in a bunch of other places other than SF. LA, Chicago, DC, Portland, all have the same issues. I am not rich nor am I poor but I avoid public transit for the reason mentioned above. I don’t know that it will ever get better seeing as how the country is falling apart with an ever widening income gap.
Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by empath75 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @10:21PM (#17421918)
I take the dc metro all the time and it doesn’t have any of those problems.

The single tracking and random fires have been the issues here.

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by homonculus1 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @08:38PM (#17421587)
Most of them are addicts who don't want help. You could give them a job and a free house and they'd end up right back where they are now.
Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by egypturnash on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:23PM (#17422156)
America continues to collect the wonderful, wonderful dividends of Ronald Reagan's decision to cut the funding for mental health to the bone.
Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by masonic on Friday June 29, 2018 @05:03AM (#17423326)
Mental health funding was higher as Reagan left office than it was when he took office, both as CA Governor and as US President.

What changed was case law, as the court rulings made it much more difficult to keep mental patients in treatment against their will.

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by mrep on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:35PM (#17422208)
That and the war on drugs...
Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by mac01021 on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:06AM (#17422925)
I'm no fonder of the war on drugs than anyone else. It promotes violent crime and places an enormous burden on the state.

But how does it cause there to be more homeless addicts?

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by TelmoMenezes on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:31AM (#17423208)
In several ways.

- It is very likely that drugs are more addictive when you are uncertain about obtaining your next fix. http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/rat-park/

- The criminalization of drug addicts turns them into an excluded class. They find it harder to get jobs or even to stay out of jail. If they start young -- and many will, once the problem becomes generational -- they are prevented from developing certain life skills and successfully develop their personality into adulthood.

- If drugs are criminalized, people will be afraid to ask for help.

- The war on drugs guarantees an unregulated black market for drugs. This means there will be no quality controls. Drugs are laced with all sorts of things that can be much worse than the pure version of the substance.

- Being arrested for something that harms nobody instills a distrust on society that, many times, never goes away. Imagine being sent to prison for years for smoking cannabis. Your life ruined. It doesn't take a lot of empathy to see how one would never trust society and its institutions again.

- The solution for addiction is, many times, other drugs. For example methadone for opiate addicts, and Ibogaine -- which appears to be a miracle cure for many addictions, but that is Schedule I in the US (and by consequence in many other countries). The war on drugs is based on pseudo-science and fear.

These are not just a bunch of hypothesis. They have been empirically confirmed by a nation-wide, multi-decade trial in Portugal.

Policy-makers that ignore all of this are not driven by the desire to help people. They have other incentives and/or irrational biases.

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by peterwwillis on Thursday June 28, 2018 @09:24PM (#17421742)
This attitude is the reason this problem isn't getting solved.
Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by wahern on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:35PM (#17422212)
Fatalism is a big part of the problem. But what he says is also largely true, particularly when it comes to long-term homeless. So another big part of the problem is people denying that truth.

We do need to provide "free homes" but we also need to coerce acceptance of assistance.

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by mrep on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:30PM (#17422185)
What do you recommend then?

The homeless population in Seattle (where I live currently) vastly decrease my quality of life despite the vast sums of money our government spends on them. I would happily contribute a lot more to taxes if it actually solved the problem but I have yet to see anyone give a good solution.

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by yellowapple on Friday June 29, 2018 @07:34AM (#17423853)
On another note, cracking down on drunks using public transit will encourage them to get behind the wheel, which is almost certainly a worse outcome for everyone.
Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by btingle on Thursday June 28, 2018 @06:28PM (#17420989)
What do I look like, mother Theresa? It's not my job to solve the city's homelessness problem. Do you mean to say that politicians/public officials/etc should be dealing with the problem?
Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by peterwwillis on Thursday June 28, 2018 @06:42PM (#17421073)
No, I'm saying citizens should solve the problem. And I know it's not your job. It's nobody's job. That's why nothing has been done.

I mean, the stupidest thing about this is this isn't that hard a problem to solve. Homeless people are just regular people with a problem and no resources to fix it. You provide them resources and help and they are no longer homeless and no longer a nuisance. Instead, people see them like pests, as if rats invaded the buses and need to be exterminated.

Typically the government would be the best way to provide funding and access to the resources and help, but they suck at execution, and they always get screwed in funding. If citizens would see that funding for helping homeless people would improve their commute & community, they might invest more, which would both solve their immediate problem, as well as the homeless' problems. A citizen led organization could do this with a combination of private funding and grants (as many today are), but first they have to convince selfish privileged assholes to reach out and help. Good luck there, as it seems privileged people just don't want to help, even though it would actually be helping themselves.

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by sopooneo on Thursday June 28, 2018 @07:11PM (#17421223)
Like me, many people I know started out believing what you wrote. But now that I'm a bit older, most that I know who have actually worked to alleviate homelessness would agree that a large portion of the visible homeless have severe mental health or addiction issues. That is not to say the they are undeserving of compassion, rather they are deserving and in need.

But to say that simply providing resources will fix the problem is naive. It's hard, and heartbreaking. I believe there are solutions that we can and will work toward, but they're not simple.

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by peterwwillis on Thursday June 28, 2018 @09:45PM (#17421806)
I'm somewhat aware of the scope of the issues. Mental health and addiction are often overwhelming when you don't have someone to help you with them, and so a case worker can definitely help. But one of the big reasons common solutions don't work is they're not comprehensive solutions.

For example, if someone is mentally ill, maybe they just need medication. But still don't have any income and perhaps no housing. What happens if they get mugged, or lose their meds, or forget to take them? Now they're unstable again. They need housing, and some small bit of income, food, security, and assistance. These are all resources, and providing them _all_ gives someone a much better shot at getting better and staying that way.

But it's also a misnomer that most homeless are addicts or crazy. One out of every 30 children in America were homeless in 2013, a disproportionate number being LGBTQ. 12 percent of homeless are veterans. In 2009 there were >535K homeless families. In fact, mental illness and addiction are the third and fourth most common reasons for homelessness.

Homelessness disproportionately affects children, destroying their education and keeping them in a cycle of poverty. If we focused more on providing them an education as well as food and shelter, this would have a big impact on outcomes of future homeless. Is providing these things simple? No, but the decision by the population to commit to actually providing them, is simple. The work will get done if we decide to.

We went to the moon on a whim. Surely we can feed and educate some kids.

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by ghostbrainalpha on Thursday June 28, 2018 @07:50PM (#17421403)
Have spent 5+ years working professionally on homelessness, this is something I can agree with.

We all want to "fix" the problem of homeless people misusing public transportation, but at least 10-20% of the homeless people I have worked with wouldn't even agree that a problem exists.

I want to add resources to "fix" the problem, but first you have to get all parties to agree that their is a problem to fix. There is a ton of grey area, and we don't talk about Hobo's anymore like we did in the 60's. But many people choose homelessness.

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by Semirhage on Thursday June 28, 2018 @07:57PM (#17421434)
Surely the solution then isn’t more housing for them, but more mental health services for them? Treating drug addiction as a health issue rather than a criminal one might not hurt either. From my time in America I was amazed to see how little option there is for people who are mentally ill, and not rich. The “solution” embraced seems to be the streets, or jails.

Of course that leads to massive social decay.

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by grasshopperpurp on Friday June 29, 2018 @01:41PM (#17426110)
>Surely the solution then isn’t more housing for them, but more mental health services for them?

Agree with your other points, but both is the correct answer. It'd be wasteful to treat someone's mental health and leave them in a situation that deteriorates their mental health.

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by baddox on Thursday June 28, 2018 @08:18PM (#17421500)
It seems a bit bizarre to imply that individual citizens have the responsibility or even capability of meaningfully solving major public welfare or health issues. Surely no one would imply the same for, say, crime or disease epidemics.
Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by mrhappyunhappy on Thursday June 28, 2018 @08:42PM (#17421604)
Oversimplification too. In LA, a large number of homeless people have mental illness, are we supposed to just provide them with resources as average citizens? I would argue that’s something that can only be solved with proper funding and professional care.
Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by peterwwillis on Thursday June 28, 2018 @08:50PM (#17421636)
But they do have that responsibility. They're supposed to wash their hands. That's the #1 way to stop the spread of viruses and bacteria. We also require they put their garbage into garbage cans and out to the street every week, so that the streets aren't literally covered in contaminated waste, like they were a century ago.

We also require they call the police when a crime is occurring. And the fire department when a fire occurs. And the city's department of works when a water main breaks. We also require they follow minimum driving standards and laws, take a test to certify they can drive, and make sure their vehicle passes a regular safety inspection.

"Public safety" in America is funny sometimes. In the rest of the developed world, produce and eggs don't usually come pre-washed, and you can even buy unpasteurized cheese and milk. But we Americans take so little responsibility for our own welfare that we literally force our society to protect us in every possible corner case, because taking the time to protect ourselves is too much to ask.

Except when it comes to necessities, like guns. Then we'd much rather be dead than safe.

Another fun example of how it's a citizen's responsibility to help: ending unjust laws that unfairly target people with no ability to defend themselves. Like the homeless. In many cities in America, it is illegal for a citizen to give a sandwich to a homeless person. They also are banned from many public spaces, and pushed out of the few places that they can actually have a space to rest or sleep, like highway underpasses and abandoned train tracks. They can't form a coalition and petition the city on their behalf; they don't have the resources. But we do.

We also have the resources to vote to install more shelters, more food banks, more outreach programs, more clean needle exchanges, more job programs, or hell, even just a place someone can have a shit and a shower. We have the resources to vote for programs to help hire homeless people, and to vote to expand low income housing. We have the resources to vote to distribute blankets and food during the winter, and expand safe spaces for more vulnerable homeless like women, children, LGBTQ youth, and so on. There's a lot of things we could do as citizens that wouldn't require you to actually do anything other than check off a box on a ballot, and maybe fork over an extra $1.50 in local taxes.

That's the least a citizen could do, but I don't see that being done either.

Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by yellowapple on Friday June 29, 2018 @07:41AM (#17423889)
"In many cities in America, it is illegal for a citizen to give a sandwich to a homeless person."

Which cities? This is the first I've ever heard of this.

[dead]
Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by dang on Sunday July 01, 2018 @12:41AM (#17434134)
Personal attacks aren't allowed here, regardless of how wrong or annoying another comment is. We ban accounts that do that, so please don't. If you'd (re-)read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and only post civil, substantive comments, we'd appreciate it. The idea on HN is to have a slightly higher quality level than "internet special".
Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by woolvalley on Friday June 29, 2018 @03:30AM (#17423017)
It is actually many people's full time job to 'solve the problem'. Homeless services in SF alone get funding in terms of billions of dollars, which pay many full time jobs. On top non-profits which get private donations.
Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by bschwindHN on Thursday June 28, 2018 @10:38PM (#17421980)
What concrete steps are you taking to solve this that others could emulate?
Re:We Should Be Building Cities for People, Not Cars (2016) by s2g on Thursday June 28, 2018 @08:31PM (#17421554)
> It's nobody's job

It's the job of the people we elect to govern our society.