News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Legend of Nintendo by furgooswft13 on Sunday June 24, 2018 @02:31PM (#17387700)
Don't get me wrong, I love Nintendo, own a Switch, and will happily shell out hundreds of dollars each generation just to get the chance to play 2 or 3 new Mario/Yoshi titles. But from the Wii era on, their hardware and success seems largely based off of gimmicks. Maybe that is what is needed to stand out in an age of increasingly homogenized games and gaming platforms, but for me what makes Nintendo stand out is their 1st party titles that consistently combine nostalgia, excellent gameplay/mechanics, charming visuals, minimal (if any) storytelling, great music, and recently multiplayer co-op (bring your wife and kids!). Ok, I'm a sucker for Mario-type games and have not much been into Zelda since Ocarina, but I struggle to find games with those qualities and quality on any other platform, if at all.

It has nothing to do with the hardware and their gimmicks. I can count on one hand the number of times I've used the Switch outside the house, or seriously played a Wii motion-control game, or a WiiU game that effectively used the dual/touchscreen features (does Mario Maker count?). If Nintendo released Mario Odyssey for PC I'd never even think of purchasing the Switch and very happily play the game at 4k 60fps on my puter. Being able to remap "shake your controller like an idiot" to spin-jump to a button in Dolphin made various Mario New's tolerable.

But yea, that'll never happen. So as long as Nintendo keeps producing on the games front, I'll happily keep biting. Plz take my money.

But how could I go on this rant without diverging into lionizing the glory of the SNES days, when Nintendo and videogames themselves were at a peak which shall never again be reached. The SNES was inarguably (though not at the time, Blast Processing and all) superior in graphics, audio, and control compared to other popular consoles at the time (that being Sega Genesis of course). And developers took advantage of all this power in spades. I'm still impressed by Mode 7 (what, you don't pause SMW when Bowser's clown-ship is zoomed to the max?), and many SNES game music are still among the best examples of VGM, before compressed digital audio removed all constraints on composers (with all due respect to the glorious SOTN and Mario Galaxy compositions).

Many people have stated that early 2d games have aged better than early 3d ones, and I think that is true. The SNES shows this well, with vibrant, colorful, glitzy graphics, and excellent music. But what I think has been lost with the new generation of consoles is unique character. One could tell at a glance whether a game was was produced for the NES, Genesis, or SNES, and even the PS1 and N64. Now that characterness is left up to the developer, and the consoles/PC mostly interchangeable. That's fine I suppose. But there is something impressive, especially as a programmer, about taking these limited machines to their absolute limits, and eking every bit of unexpected power out of them.

I remember once my friend messaged me, he just had to play FF3 (or FF6) like RIGHT NOW. So I sent him the ROM. We then both marveled at how it was only 4 megabytes in size. Kefka is truly rolling in his grave, laughing maniacally.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by sotojuan on Sunday June 24, 2018 @02:52PM (#17387798)
> I can count on one hand the number of times I've used the Switch outside the house

Do you live in the US and in a non-urban area (e.g. not NYC)? If so, you probably have no reason to use the Switch outside the house. You may have a car commute and live in country where playing handheld games outside isn't normal.

I say this because growing up in a suburb, not many people played their GBA/DS/3DS outside. We all just brought them to each other's houses or played them in cars.

Now that I live in NYC, you might see me playing on my 3DS or Vita during my subway commute (I'm too scared to take the Switch out since it costs $300). In Japan, handheld games and consoles are becoming the norm, so it's very common.

I will say the ability to go from couch/TV/projector to bed and still be playing the same game is awesome.

And yes, FFVI is the best JRPG of all time.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by ehnto on Sunday June 24, 2018 @03:20PM (#17387939)
I haven't needed a handheld in probably 10 years, and haven't had one. But I often wish I did as some key titles only exist on them.

Previously my argument was that I wasn't going to spend a few hundred dollars to play games hunched over a handheld in my living room as that's the only place I play. The switch happily fills that niche of having handheld titles but still being a capable living room console.

It seems to me that Ninetendo are great at finding ideas that at first glance seem really silly, but were borne from research into the real world outside of the typical gamer echo chamber.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by Grazester on Sunday June 24, 2018 @08:15PM (#17389071)
You're afraid to take out your switch? I am assuming you don't own a $300 phone either. Unless you're in a shady neighbourhood at weird hours of the night waiting for the train no one care about your switch. I see a few people using them on the subway but surprisingly handhelds never seemed super popular on the train because I dont even see many people on the cheaper Nintendo DS's either. I see lots of people gaming on their phones though.
Re:The Legend of Nintendo by sotojuan on Sunday June 24, 2018 @08:24PM (#17389114)
Yeah it's a little weird but I just don't feel good about taking it outside yet... maybe that will change.

As for the second part of your comment, it's simple. Playing handheld video games in public is not typical or socially normal in the US... unless it's on your phone.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by krageon on Monday June 25, 2018 @12:55PM (#17393849)
Why does it matter whether or not it's typical or socially normal? Are people going to beat you if you stand out as a minor nerd?
Re:The Legend of Nintendo by sotojuan on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:04PM (#17393900)
No. I play games during my commute all the time. I'm explaining why it is not more common in the US.
Re:The Legend of Nintendo by furgooswft13 on Sunday June 24, 2018 @03:10PM (#17387884)
> I will say the ability to go from couch/TV/projector to bed and still be playing the same game is awesome.

WiiU has your back there too, assuming your house is not too big. I do kinda wish the Switch managed to keep the feature of dual screen play. Not having it makes my hopes for a new Mario Maker for Switch pretty faint.

> And yes, FFVI is the best JRPG of all time.

Preach.

And yes, I live in the US in a small town and my commute to work is on the order of ~5 minutes.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by oflannabhra on Sunday June 24, 2018 @02:56PM (#17387825)
>... their hardware and success seems largely based off of gimmicks.

Nintendo’s gimmicks of today are tomorrow’s table stakes. See: shoulder buttons, analog sticks, rumble, wireless, motion, portability.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Sunday June 24, 2018 @03:17PM (#17387929)
Actually Nintendo invented the D-pad too (kinda).
Re:The Legend of Nintendo by mrob on Sunday June 24, 2018 @06:18PM (#17388676)
"The SNES was inarguably (though not at the time, Blast Processing and all) superior in graphics, audio, and control compared to other popular consoles at the time (that being Sega Genesis of course)."

It was better suited to the kinds of things liked by the mainstream audience, but it wasn't inarguably better. The Genesis had higher resolution graphics for most of its games, a sound chip that didn't sound muffled all the time because of severely limited sample memory, and a faster CPU meaning less slowdown and loading delays (cartridge systems still had loading delays, because when storage space costs that much you compress things as much as possible, and decompress into ram at runtime). The SNES has nothing like the games by Treasure for the Genesis.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by GlitchMr on Monday June 25, 2018 @09:37AM (#17392287)
While I agree about the higher resolution point (SNES technically did support higher resolutions than Genesis, but not many games used this functionality as it used more VRAM), I'm confused about two other points.

> a sound chip that didn't sound muffled all the time because of severely limited sample memory

Huh? SNES sound chip, SPC700 has 64KB of RAM, supported 8 voices and had 32 kHz sampling rate.

For comparison combination of Z80 and YM2612 used by Genesis had 8KB of RAM, supported 6 voices and had 22 kHz sampling rate.

That said, I agree that SNES sound does sound muffled, although this is mostly due to Guassian filter involved. The available RAM didn't help, but Sega Genesis had even worse in terms of available RAM.

> a faster CPU

Until you realize that all instruction execution times are multiples of four cycles. Yes, the CPU is 7.6 MHz, not 3.58 MHz, but effectively SNES CPU is slightly faster for FastROM games (not all games used fast cartridges however, for slower cartridges, SNES uses 2.56 MHz clock). Not much, but...

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by mrob on Monday June 25, 2018 @07:53PM (#17396865)
>combination of Z80 and YM2612 used by Genesis had 8KB of RAM, supported 6 voices and had 22 kHz sampling rate

Technically true, but misleading, because the 22kHz only applied to the DAC mode. The effective sampling rate (sampling rate needed to reproduce the output using PCM synthesis) of the FM synthesis mode is about 53kHz. And the Genesis also had a 4 channel (3 square, 1 noise) SN76489 PSG integrated on the VPU die, with effective sampling rate of about 224kHz, which could be used at the same time as the YM2612. In practice the frequency response is bottlenecked by the analog parts, but it still beats the SNES. The limited RAM is also of little importance because FM synthesis can generate complex tones without it.

In contrast, SNES music is entirely sample based, so it's entirely dependent on sample RAM size (unless you're streaming samples from the cartridge, which is too expensive to do during gameplay). Theoretically it could use extremely short looping samples for PC Engine-style wavetable synthesis (which to my ears sounds better than standard SNES music), but AFAIK no commercially released game did this.

>Until you realize that all instruction execution times are multiples of four cycles. Yes, the CPU is 7.6 MHz, not 3.58 MHz, but effectively SNES CPU is slightly faster for FastROM games

The Genesis not only had a faster clock, but also a wider data bus, more registers, wider registers, and higher memory bandwidth. You're right that "megahertz myth" comparisons are invalid, but you're wrong that this lets the SNES win. https://segaretro.org/Blast_processing has some detailed technical comparisons.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by amyjess on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:42AM (#17392761)
And yet the Genesis couldn't do Mode 7, which was responsible for some of the coolest graphical tricks on SNES games.
Re:The Legend of Nintendo by pvg on Sunday June 24, 2018 @02:52PM (#17387802)
You're putting a lot of weight on a very brief period in which Nintendo's hardware was at the top of the hardware performance pile. Nintendo hasn't been doing that for well over 20 years and it's worked out very well for them, for the most part.
Re:The Legend of Nintendo by furgooswft13 on Sunday June 24, 2018 @03:05PM (#17387860)
I know, and it's kinda sad, but not really. Nintendo tried the "most powerful" tact again with N64, and even if they did not insist on using cartridges, I doubt the system would have had a clear cut graphical advantage over the PS1.

The SNES was the perfect combo of better color pallet, better gfx effects, better audio, and a better controller, compared to it's main competition. And to be fair, without the slew of brilliant games produced for the system, all that would have been for naught. But it was the whole package that made that system great. It had the best of all worlds at the time.

Of course today building a "most powerful" console would be complete folly with the PC gaming platform around, and no console maker even tries, though Sony and MS might fight amongst themselves. At the time however, consoles were truly head and shoulders above what common PC's could do in the 2d and audio realm.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by pvg on Sunday June 24, 2018 @03:16PM (#17387927)
That analysis looks a little different if you recall the 'wow factor' competitor for the SNES wasn't a PC or another home console - it was the arcade machine. That part of the hierarchy disappeared completely.
Re:The Legend of Nintendo by furgooswft13 on Sunday June 24, 2018 @03:22PM (#17387955)
Sadly yes. But having that "wow factor" in your home, especially in the form of extended play RPGs, was really something at the time. I'll also say that most arcade games really did not pay much thought to music, probably because of the noisy arcade venues.

And don't forgot some of the excellent SNES ports of arcade games (and the controversy over the "bloodless" Mortal Kombat on an otherwise superior version compared to Genesis).

I still rue the day when my local arcade was shutdown and replaced with a clothing store. Damn you, kids these days.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by pvg on Sunday June 24, 2018 @03:32PM (#17387997)
did not pay much thought to music

Hah, come on now. For all the merits of Chrono Trigger, what goes with everything? That's right. Guile theme.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by furgooswft13 on Sunday June 24, 2018 @03:39PM (#17388022)
I'll give you that. Butttttt, I bet it sounded way more awesome on the SNES. Prove me wrong! (no really, I'm enjoying this kinda quasi 16bit war discussion).

Case in point: TMNT: Turtles in Time

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by furgooswft13 on Sunday June 24, 2018 @04:11PM (#17388170)
Okay, I take it back. Guile's theme sounds way more epic on the CPS2. Damn you Internet.
Re:The Legend of Nintendo by pvg on Sunday June 24, 2018 @09:21PM (#17389335)
Are you listening to SF2 Turbo instead of the CPS1-based SF 2 World Warrior? Probably doing the SNES a bit of a disservice since I'm pretty sure it just reuses the original World Warrior music. Which was also re-arranged for the SNES but those two are a fair bit closer. I'd imagine for the SNES ports, the arrangers had to deal not just with the more limited sound hardware but also the fact that the whole thing had to look and sound decent on everything starting from a crappy tv with a tiny speaker and up.
Re:The Legend of Nintendo by kbenson on Sunday June 24, 2018 @02:44PM (#17387752)
IIRC all the new Marios had a dedicated button to that spin, z I think.

I think Odyssey is the first that has enough variations that you can't just use button combos for some. I tried playing it with a wired controller without accelerometer support while a nunchuk was out to get fixed, it was had to do a lot of the moves.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by brandonjm on Sunday June 24, 2018 @08:49PM (#17389213)
> I can count on one hand the number of times I've used the Switch outside the house

For me it isn't even about taking it outside or play while commuting so much as being able to pick it up and play it on the couch, at my desk, while watching food cook etc. Also the ability to just pick it up, take it to a friends and play games I own but they don't on their TV.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by AsyncAwait on Sunday June 24, 2018 @04:06PM (#17388148)
> I can count on one hand the number of times I've used the Switch outside the house

I use it regularly in handheld mode and in fact Switch is my first Nintendo console, which I would not buy if it wasn't portable.

Re:The Legend of Nintendo by billybolton on Sunday June 24, 2018 @02:54PM (#17387806)
idk I play it when I poop. Best feature of all time.
Re:The Legend of Nintendo by furgooswft13 on Sunday June 24, 2018 @03:08PM (#17387873)
The Switch and smartphones have truly increased the value and necessity of having a house with multiple bathrooms.
Re:The Legend of Nintendo by always_good on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:41PM (#17394189)
And the hemorrhoid cream industry.