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Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by mindcrime on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:41PM (#17375839)
We really need to figure out how to get to a stateless, borderless society, and end this kind of absurdity. There is NO justification, none, zero, zilch, nada, for somebody being detained for two weeks for crossing an imaginary line while running on a beach. It's not just absurd, it's beyond absurd.
Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by ac29 on Friday June 22, 2018 @03:03PM (#17376488)
2 weeks is a long time to be detained, but the problem is that she was traveling with no ID, no passport, and wasn't a citizen of either the US or Canada. She couldn't be discharged back into Canada immediately, because they had to confirm she was allowed to be there.

I have a feeling if she was a Canadian citizen, this would have been a slap on the wrist, and she would've been let back into Canada within hours, if not immediately.

Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by colemannugent on Friday June 22, 2018 @02:05PM (#17376005)
>...crossing an imaginary line...

But it's not an imaginary line, it's a line that two democratic countries agreed to create to separate them. She inadvertently crossed one of the most important lines that exists, a line that demarcates two sovereign countries that hold wildly different world views. Until such a stateless utopia manifests itself we still need these lines.

I agree on the two week detention being absurd. It should have taken less than a few hours to sort things out.

Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by mindcrime on Friday June 22, 2018 @03:20PM (#17376605)
But it's not an imaginary line, it's a line that two democratic countries agreed to create to separate them.

Sorry, but I can't help but read that as "it's not an imaginary line, it's an imaginary line".

She inadvertently crossed one of the most important lines that exists, a line that demarcates two sovereign countries

A case can be made that "sovereign countries" are imaginary constructs that should be abolished, along with their imaginary lines of demarcation.

I mean, I understand where you're coming from, but what I'm saying is that elevating that line to some concrete status is rooted in a worldview which has no objective reality. We can abolish borders, we just need to come together and muster up the will to do it. Which means, in part, finding solutions to all the problems the statists will use as arguments for preserving their lines.

Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by colemannugent on Friday June 22, 2018 @04:28PM (#17377093)
>A case can be made that "sovereign countries" are imaginary constructs that should be abolished

An exceedingly weak case can be made. It makes for a fun thought experiment but it falls apart really quickly.

Say someone did manage to abolish all the states, why would that not just be the conqueror establishing a new global state? How would you enforce the rule no states allowed? Who would enforce it? If there was no global state to enforce the rule, what stops someone like me from organizing a state and easily conquering the stateless?

>...elevating that line to some concrete status is rooted in a worldview which has no objective reality

I'm curious what worldview you think is rooted in objective reality? To me a world where everyone just gets along and lives in cooperative communes is lacking a foundation in reality.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the state. I do however view it as a necessary evil. Remember, ultimately the state is still just people. Any gripe you have with the state is just a gripe against people with power. Saying that nobody should hold power is a cop out.

The hard part of organizing the human race is trying to determine who should organize us. To that end it seems like a democratic state is more desirable than a hopelessly disorganized commune.

Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by ahjushi on Friday June 22, 2018 @06:41PM (#17378104)
"Imaginary" doesn't mean useless or meaningless. Let's take a look at this at a smaller scale: property lines. Assuming one has a front yard within their property lines, that line too is "imaginary" in that it may not be explicitly demarcated or labeled. Would you be fine with anyone and everyone chillin in your front yard? If you want to make the argument that border lines are imaginary, can you even call your front yard "yours"?

We can abolish borders, but that doesn't seem like a future rooted in reality. Who governs who? Sounds like you want everyone to live under one "nation"...like are you really advocating for world peace?

What laws are you subject to? What protections do you have? These are all dependent on which side of the border you land, therefore you have to set where one side ends and where another begins.

Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by xenadu02 on Saturday June 23, 2018 @08:26PM (#17384248)
Except for 100+ years the line was mostly imaginary. There are towns that cross the border. The idea that we need such border security is laughable and a flimsy excuse for expansion of government powers.
Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by pwinnski on Friday June 22, 2018 @03:45PM (#17376778)
She didn't cross a river, or a mountain, or a wall, or a fence. The line is definitely imaginary. It is also real.
Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by asdsa5325 on Friday June 22, 2018 @03:51PM (#17376827)
The border is marked in various ways.
Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by pwinnski on Monday June 25, 2018 @11:04AM (#17392940)
The whole point of this story is that it is not marked at the point she crossed.

It's a beach. Presumably the part she jogged along is underwater part of the time due to tides and that is why there is no marker.

You seem to be stuck on the label "imaginary" in ways that are unrelated to the article at hand.

Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by seba_dos1 on Friday June 22, 2018 @03:33PM (#17376704)
Thankfully I live in the Schengen Area and crossing the border is usually no bigger deal than going to another town (aside of language on signs being different). After a while it becomes so natural that I had a very stressful moment once in the middle of a car trip from Poland to Croatia (Dubrovnik) after realizing that we will have to cross through Bosnia (for only a few kilometres actually) which is not in EU and that I haven't bought a passport. Fortunately, turned out that ID was enough to pass, although that wasn't guaranteed (and that Croatia, despite of being in EU, isn't actually in Schengen yet :P however, ID is officially enough there. It still meant that there were ridiculous border checks though).
Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by monksy on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:55PM (#17375934)
Stateless/borderless is an absurd goal to seek. (There are very good reasons for having countries and borders.. you have to draw the line somewhere)

The ridiculous treatment of the individual in the situation is something we should come down hard on that section of the government. (They should be facing an inquiry about that)

Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by mindcrime on Friday June 22, 2018 @04:13PM (#17376975)
Stateless/borderless is an absurd goal to seek.

Why do you say so? There's nothing inherently "good" or "just" about nation states. The only nominal support I can find for such an idea is rooted in applying something like Dunbar's Number[1]. But arguably appealing to that is committing a variation of the naturalistic fallacy[2].

The ridiculous treatment of the individual in the situation is something we should come down hard on that section of the government. (They should be facing an inquiry about that)

But who's going to conduct such an inquiry? The government? Oh, wait. It's the old "who watches the watchers?" problem. Me, I don't trust the government to provide oversight of itself. For the same reason I don't trust police to police themselves when it comes to excessive force cases, etc.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by monksy on Friday June 22, 2018 @06:07PM (#17377874)
If you want to have a voice in your government, you have to have some kind of division in your area/nation.

Without borders or nations, you're suggesting there will be a universal law. Who's law do you want? Do you want to be forced to wear head coverings, do you want internet censorship? Do you want to have kickbacks from the cartel? Having different nations allows you to understand where there are tradeoffs.

Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by spankalee on Friday June 22, 2018 @03:58PM (#17376872)
> you have to draw the line somewhere

Can you back up that assertion?

Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by _dps on Friday June 22, 2018 @10:56PM (#17379256)
No-borders only makes sense with anarchy or with global government. If there is more than one government in the world, they will have their own jurisdictions. Borders are the lines people use to separate jurisdictions in physical space (there are abstract separations as well).

The border between the US and Mexico exists because the US and Mexico have different laws (including taxation and benefits). The border is where the US and Mexico have negotiated that one's rules stop holding and the other's rules start holding.

Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by ahjushi on Friday June 22, 2018 @06:52PM (#17378189)
Without lines/borders, where does one nation end and another begin? If you are suggesting no nations, what laws are you subject to and what protections do you have?
Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by Broken_Hippo on Saturday June 23, 2018 @08:31PM (#17384268)
"you have to draw the line somewhere"

For taxes and things, sure. For oppression of peoples? Probably. To keep undesirable countries citizens out? Sure. To have an excuse not to care about what goes on in other countries? Most definitely.

Travel and freedom of movement and work and choice in where you wind up living? Not really.

Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by Someone1234 on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:52PM (#17375910)
It wasn't like this pre-9/11. They would have just politely asked her to return to Canada.
Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by jostonde on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:49PM (#17375887)
Sometimes reading such news I wonder if all our collective common sense is definitely gone.
Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by lord_ring_11 on Friday June 22, 2018 @08:45PM (#17378721)
Why is boundary around your house also not an absurdity? Can few people stay there tonight or permanently. Tgey might not respect you though.
Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by dsfyu404ed on Friday June 22, 2018 @02:14PM (#17376063)
Open borders or good social safety nets, pick one.

edit: if there's some way that we can pick both please feel free to tell everyone.

Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by djohnston on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:50PM (#17375897)
i agree that the long term we probably will lose borders, but i can't see how that happens from here without extensive blood shed
Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by asdsa5325 on Friday June 22, 2018 @03:50PM (#17376818)
Or we can just have common sense about a jogger accidentally crossing? Why do you jump to stateless/borderless? Let me tell you, that's absurd.
Re:Jogger accidentally crosses U.S. border from B.C., gets d... by mindcrime on Friday June 22, 2018 @03:57PM (#17376867)
Let me tell you, that's absurd.

Oh?