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Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by frockington on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @08:52AM (#17346069)
So why not free trade? I hate the idea of tariffs, but when your "allies" have had non reciprocal tariffs something needs to be done. I think all of this would go away if all tariffs against US products were removed
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by ska on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:24AM (#17346332)
So you believe that the US is a victim of protectionism in these countries without having protectionism of it's own? That's a pretty hard position to back with evidence.

For example US farm subsidies are significant and supply management is common in many areas, but the rhetoric around Canadian dairy supply management recently has been amplified far beyond even it's wildest possible impact. And this with a country with extraordinarily balanced trade, if anything probably a deficit. The history of trade between the two countries is littered with spats about US protecting this, Canada protecting that, but on the whole very balanced. Pretending otherwise may make for good politics (i guess that remains to be seen) but it isn't based on evidence or good policy work.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by alkonaut on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:21AM (#17346901)
I think farm/dairy is the example where almost all countries have weird tariffs. Which is of course why they are such popular examples. But they are exceptions.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by gaius on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @02:23PM (#17349103)
Farming, steel and a few other industries are strategic. A country fails to protect them at its peril.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by frockington on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:32AM (#17346385)
I believe nobody should have tariffs. Understanding that is never going to happen, it should at least be a starting ppoint
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by cdumler on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:44AM (#17346506)
I'm glad that you believe it, but it's not a reasonable position. The primary reason for some U.S. tariffs is the legitimate reason of national security. We provide tariffs on certain foods, mineral resources, and military products because we want to guarantee that we do not loose production ability. Should we suddenly find ourselves in a world war, we would not be creating these production lines from scratch. Therefore, tariffs are always a balancing act between being nice to our friends and ensuring we keep some level of production available.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by mikk14 on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @11:34AM (#17347618)
Well, frankly I don't think it's a disadvantage. It's difficult to move out from the equilibrium of countries mistrusting each other, but I think what you describe is actually an utopia. If we manage to destroy all tariffs and make countries lose parts of their production abilities, we'd make war unthinkable, which is a net good. The US would never start an all-out war because it would starve, and whomever specialized in the agricultural products supplanting the US productive capability would never start a war because they cannot build weapons.

Of course there are huge problems with this -- what happens if whomever makes your food goes tits up, involuntarily (natural disasters, coups, ...) or voluntarily (maliciously attacking)? Who guarantees the system? How? Etc... --, if there weren't I wouldn't call it utopia. But I think raising the costs of war beyond the unreasonable is a net gain.

Note: I'm fully aware that this is an extremist and probably next to impossible position, no one has to remind me that. I just contest the fact that the objection "but then we could not go around and kill people" isn't a particularly good counter-argument for no trade barriers.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by Symbiote on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @03:07AM (#17353219)
The European Union is an attempt at this utopia.

There are no tariffs on food, steel or similar between the member states. All states subsidise food production, but not steel.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by king_phil on Saturday June 30, 2018 @05:12PM (#17432778)
You did not mention that since the founding of the EU, there has not been a single war between member states. Compare that to european history and you see the most important thing about the EU. I can live with all the things there are rightfully to be criticized about the EU, in exchange for peace in continental europe.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by fizgig on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:18AM (#17346864)
Wouldn't strategic reserves be a solution to this? Hoard enough to cover ramp-up time for domestic production.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by benrbray on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:26AM (#17346951)
Food spoils and we can't predict how long a war will last.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by gbacon on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @12:19PM (#17348025)
The only winning move is not to play.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by ska on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @11:24AM (#17347527)
Wait, so your first step is for other countries to remove their subsidies/tariffs but the US doesn't do the same? How well do you think that will fly in those countries?

If you mean you'd like to see the US and those countries both drop tariffs and protections, I can see you argument - but that's the opposite of the direction things are going today so I don't see the relevance. Even if it were not, it's hard to argue against a countries legitimate security concerns in some areas, although clearly that argument can be abused (again, cf current rhetoric).

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by ChuckMcM on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:49AM (#17346542)
That will work as soon as we have a single currency.

The EU is a really good example here of how a single currency puts everyone on the same economic accounting basis and so eliminates the ability of a country to 'fudge' the numbers through either internal subsidies or currency manipulation.

The reason you need a single currency is that if you're going to sell barrels of wheat from country X to country Y, and country Y buys televisions from country X. How many units of currency is a television worth relative to a barrel of wheat? If those values are tied to the same currency, then the economic incentive to grow wheat or build televisions will be on the same footing.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by nabla9 on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:04AM (#17346683)
This is incorrect understanding of how currencies work. Same currency works only when the area satisfies optimum currency area criteria well enough. Euroarea is in constant trouble because it is not good currency region as it is now. You need at least common fiscal policy to fix it.

In general, freely floating currencies fix all problems you mention.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by ChuckMcM on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @01:20PM (#17348498)
FWIW, I'm not a big fan of OCA theory. Or perhaps a better way to say it is that I think the case for making the entire planet with its next day transport of goods and immediate delivery of services would nominally qualify as a single OCA. Note that Mundells criteria are focused primarily on sovereignty and not economics per se (see the Greek comment in peer comment).

Tariffs and currency manipulation are a sovereign response to prevent efficient markets that would render local labor noncompetitive.

And as I mentioned earlier, a single currency makes such manipulations ineffective and you get Greece. They can't bring their productivity up to the level of Germany or France and their economy suffers for it because all of the capital goes elsewhere.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by echotango on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:59AM (#17346647)
The inability to devalue currency is why greece cant recover. The Euro is idiotic.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by solatic on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @11:03AM (#17347305)
Greece can't recover because its exports are too expensive. Devaluing the currency in which those exports are sold in order to spur exports doesn't solve the underlying problem, which is Greek productivity. Imagine that the German economy is a Prius and the Greek economy is a truck hauling a ton in a trailer behind it, and the Greek truck is complaining that it costs more in fuel than the German Prius to get from the same point A to the same point B. Devaluing the Greek currency is like making fuel cost less especially for the Greek truck with no change in cost for the German Prius; sure, if the fuel is cheap enough for the Greek truck then maybe the Greek truck will be price-competitive in getting you from A to B, but the real solution is "how do we get the Greek truck to first dump the ton it's hauling behind it and then how do we make it more fuel efficient".

In a single-currency market, it is the responsibility of strong players to shore up the economies of weak players, or risk popular discontent in the weaker economy and the democratic dissolution of the common currency. German politicians have paid lip service to this but have not really put German resources to use in building up the PIGS economies because such a policy is unpopular with the German voting public, which wants to see those resources stay in Germany and to the nearsighted benefit of German taxpayers. This is the real root of the Euro crisis. There were always going to be weaker players in the EU, and it doesn't matter if it's Greece, it could very easily have been some other country. The question is what do stronger players do.

The US doesn't suffer from this issue because, to use an oversimplified example, California voters aren't discontent with FEMA funds used in hurricane disaster recovery areas. Californians are Americans before they're Californians, by and large.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by guitarbill on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @11:39AM (#17347666)
> There were always going to be weaker players in the EU

This is true, however there were quite strict criteria (the Maastricht criteria) put in place to try and prevent this from being too bigger problem. In hindsight, those criteria weren't sufficient, in one way or another.

I believe it's correct to say those weaker economies benefited from adopting the Euro the short term, and that they wanted to join the Euro.

As a twist, the Euro was somewhat unpopular in Germany when it was introduced, because it made things more expensive. So there is a feeling that Germany "paid" the price of adopting the Euro - whether this is true or not is irrelevant for the sake of policy-making.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by adventured on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:05AM (#17346693)
Even worse: Germany, an already very strong nation, gets to free ride the Euro for its export machine at the cost of its Eurozone rivals (and other competitors in Europe broadly). If Germany had its own currency, it would be considerably more expensive than the Euro is today, which would make German exports more expensive. As you note, countries like Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal would do better because their exports would be cheaper under less expensive national currencies (unique to their individual economic circumstances), enabling them to compete better against Germany's exports. This artificial prop can be seen in the fact that Germany has the world's largest trade surplus as a percentage of its economic output.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by ChuckMcM on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:10AM (#17346761)
But that is exactly the point right? If you devalue the common currency then the amount you pay Greek farmers goes "up" effectively, and the price you pay German farmers also goes "up" so the relative costs of things stay the same and nothing changes. Whereas with a translation layer (currency exchange) you can "adjust" what it costs Greece and what it costs Germany to the advantage of one or the other.

A tariff is a way to adjust this economic cost externally which takes it out of the market's hands and put it into a political realm and one step removed from the actual economy that should be adjusting.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by king_phil on Saturday June 30, 2018 @05:14PM (#17432786)
And at the same time, the Euro is fantastic. It is just a question of your viewpoint.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by jakeogh on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:00AM (#17346653)
Say bye to Italy.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by jakeogh on Thursday June 21, 2018 @01:44AM (#17362438)
EDIT: Sweden and Hungary too.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by nabla9 on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:38AM (#17347065)
Thera are existing mechanisms and professes to deal with trade disputes. US has successfully used them before. Trump is lashing out from ignorance an incompetence. His apologist's from ignorance.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by defertoreptar on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:39AM (#17346446)
> So you believe that the US is a victim of protectionism in these countries without having protectionism of it's own? That's a pretty hard position to back with evidence.

You need look no further than the USA's gaping trade deficits.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @08:44PM (#17351502)
> You need look no further than the USA's gaping trade deficits.

A “trade deficit” is just another name for a capital inflow surplus.

If you want a smaller trade deficit, reduce the degree to which you systematically favor capital.

Of course, what policymakers usually justify based on a trade deficit is increased support for domestically headquartered firms and other supports for capital invested in the country, which results in more net foreign investment and higher trade deficit, which is used to support more capital-serving policy, which results in more capital inflows, etc.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by defertoreptar on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @10:07AM (#17355455)
You've said nothing wrong, and at the same time I'm not sure how that contradicts my point. A large trade deficit does indicate that one country's protectionism outweighs the other (i.e. larger tariffs result in a deficit).
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by jeromegv on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:41AM (#17346477)
There is no trade deficit with Canada.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by defertoreptar on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:53AM (#17346589)
I believe you're referring to the USA's "aggregate sales surplus," which measures both direct trade and sales of multinational companies--a headline making rounds on the news this past week.

These numbers include items made in China, by Chinese jobs, using Chinese components, under a US company name. It uses total sales, and not net revenue, which would change the picture by a great deal.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by echotango on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:01AM (#17346657)
Lol people won't actually address your point they just downvote your post. Hn is very classy when people bring up politics
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by s73v3r_ on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @02:09PM (#17348978)
No, we just don't want to waste our time arguing with someone who very clearly is not doing so in good faith.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by defertoreptar on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @02:12PM (#17349003)
> very clearly is not doing so in good faith.

I'm confused. What do you mean by that?

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by s73v3r_ on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @06:56PM (#17350940)
There is no trade deficit with Canada. At all. Claiming there is one, in the face of all facts to the contrary, is not having a discussion in good faith.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by defertoreptar on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @08:25PM (#17351418)
So instead of enlightening me with these facts, you accuse me of acting in bad faith? I was under the impression that there was a trade deficit with Canada given the evidence I have found: https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c1220.html .

jeromegv said there was no trade deficit with Canada, so I assumed good faith and responded to him/her under the pretense that they were referring to the "aggregate sales surplus" figure that has been in the news recently.

Can you please help me understand how I have ignored facts and acted in bad faith? I would like to fix this problem, but I do not understand where to begin.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by DomreiRoam on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @05:32AM (#17353796)
My understanding is that your reference doesn't include services. I find this: https://www.usitc.gov/publications/industry_econ_analysis_33... and a synthesis by the WP: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/06/11/w...

It seems that US and Canada trade is globally balanced.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by defertoreptar on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @08:18AM (#17354645)
You're right. It looks like US - Canada services trade surplus makes up for the goods deficit.
[dead]
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by s73v3r_ on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @06:52PM (#17350924)
No, not in the least. But persons who can't even be counted on to not make up their own facts are clearly not acting in good faith.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by adventured on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:11AM (#17346770)
There was a cumulative $370 billion trade deficit going back to 2007, and a nearly $800 billion trade deficit back to year 2000. There has been a trade deficit with Canada every year the past 30+ years, including so far in 2018. [1]

How would Canada like to run a $800 billion trade deficit with the US over the next 17 years? You know, just to make things fair over time. Didn't think so.

On the upside, the trade deficit has narrowed from a common $30 billion five years ago, to more like $10 to $15 billion. That's a pretty happy result if you're the US, given it's a consumption engine (lower domestic savings at the median, higher consumption rate, which pushes up demand for imports in most cases).

[1] https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c1220.html

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by ska on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @11:54AM (#17347807)
Funnily enough, the US numbers show a trade deficit with Canada, and the Canadian numbers show a trade deficit with the US. Who knew - it turns out that how you compute these things gives you the ability to wiggle a bit.

What is generally accepted though, is that internationally speaking the US and Canada are one of the most balanced know of, over long periods, and for major trading partners.

Pretending otherwise is just serving partisan politics at this point.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by DomreiRoam on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @05:35AM (#17353805)
It doesn't count services. I did find a useful link when I wanted to respond to another comment : https://www.usitc.gov/publications/industry_econ_analysis_33...
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by ajmurmann on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:24AM (#17346928)
Maybe that's happening because the US isn't competitive enough?
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by defertoreptar on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:32AM (#17347008)
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @08:50PM (#17351516)
It's happening because the US is very competitive as a place to invest capital. Trade deficit can be visualized as people in the US selling capital and using the proceeds to buy goods; the reality is more complex and has more intermediate steps, but that's the net effect.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by justin66 on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:24AM (#17346328)
> So why not free trade?

Every country involved has industries which won't allow this. For example, all the countries in the G8 have agricultural sectors which will not allow elimination of trade barriers.

So, even if you want "free trade," you start with each country's list of stuff where there is not going to be free trade, and move forward from there.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by frockington on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:29AM (#17346364)
I agree its not going to happen. I like your idea of a starting point though
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by justin66 on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:57AM (#17346630)
It's not really my idea, it's what the larger countries basically did starting in the eighties and early nineties when free trade ideology was quite strong, leading up to the creation of the WTO and EU and so on and so forth. What you see today is the evolution of that starting point that you like...
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by graeme on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:08AM (#17346728)
I don't understand this position. Free trade would be nice, so let's make the furthest thing from free trade by adding tariffs?

The only time the president mentioned lower tariffs was an offhand comment at the G7. All of his other positions imply he disagrees with you and thinks trade is bad.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by singularity2001 on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:41AM (#17346482)
Oh, that's the game? Trump wants an argument to later push again for those horrible secret «free trade deals» which would have undermined European politics, consumer-safety, ecological standards and democracy itself? (TTIP and co)
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by endorphone on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:07AM (#17346192)
Do you think the US plays by free trade?

Intellectual property rights/copyright laws, both linchpins of US policy, are the very definition of government intervention.

The US aerospace and manufacturing industry is overwhelmingly subsidized by the military complex, a lot of it done under the auspices of "national security". For the US to complain about Airbus or Bombardier is simply incredible.

US agriculture is outrageously subsidized. I'll go into a specific example in a moment, but the notion that that the US is trying to play fair is simply incredible.

The US loses at the US-created WTO time and time again (see: Canadian softwood) and simply ignores the rulings.

"but when your "allies" have had non reciprocal tariffs"

I don't know what example you're thinking of, but let's consider the case of Canada (a country that the US has a trade surplus with). Canada has supply management for dairy to ensure a supply that matches demand to ensure food security. To protect this, Canada applies a high tariff for imports above the quota.

"So unfair to US farmers!" yells Trump.

Only here's the problem with his ignorant, easily swayed vision.

Canada exports less dairy to the US than vice versa. Like, 1/2 as much. The whole point of supply management is that it doesn't generate an excess, and for that small industry the exports and imports are generally only for very specialized things.

US dairy, in contrast, is hugely subsidized. To the tune of 74% of US dairy income comes, directly and indirectly, from the US government (0% in Canada comes from the government). Hence US farmers grossly overproduce and then look to dump it elsewhere, destroying production elsewhere. Just as US corn production is essentially a government enterprise, flooding the world with corn by-products and HFCSs.

Who is the villain here? Trump can rattle off some scary number to his clueless fans (I'd steer clear of the pejoratives, but given that Trump is a lifetime grifter and con man, whose virtually every statement is an outrageous lie, it is incredible that someone can be called his fan), but Canada has nothing at all, whatsoever, to do with those poor American farmers. It certainly isn't Canadian milk on American shelves causing their ills, because Canadian milk isn't on their shelves.

Nor did China cause the US poor to live in such dire straights. This is just the latest example of the US becoming more and more polarized, while convincing the poorest that it's always some external reason why they live in destitution in the richest nation on Earth.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by raverbashing on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:48AM (#17346537)
> US agriculture is outrageously subsidized. I'll go into a specific example in a moment

Yeah, corn. That's why everything is HFCS heavy in the US. And I do mean everything.

Things that didn't need to have so much sugar like bread, ketchup, other sauces, soup, etc.

It's easier to get it than to avoid it.

And american's health suffer for it.

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by gbacon on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @12:24PM (#17348059)
Be thankful that you’re getting your bread and soup ration for today, citizen.
Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by imglorp on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:36AM (#17346418)
Don't forget fossil fuel subsidies. Around $20B/year but the dollar cost is only part of the destruction here.

http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies

Re:New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring by frockington on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @09:29AM (#17346358)
I don't think the US plays fair either. I think everyone should play fair. Domestic subsidies I don't personally care about as it should be up to each country to deal with internally.