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Re:Asian-American admissions at Harvard by colordrops on Saturday June 16, 2018 @02:17AM (#17326175)
Even if it is case that native speakers of a specific dialect score higher, it's not clear that the result is due to language barriers, and could be a correlation with socio-economic groups. That is the point of bringing up non-native speakers doing well, as the test is not even their native language, which is certainly a greater disadvantage than a different dialect.
Re:Asian-American admissions at Harvard by learc83 on Saturday June 16, 2018 @02:30AM (#17326200)
So you don't think that there is an advantage gained by being a native speaker of a dialect a test is written in?

The academic consensus is that there is.

The clearest example is that vocabulary is a large part of most standardized tests and native speakers have larger vocabularies than proficient L2 speakers.

Re:Asian-American admissions at Harvard by colordrops on Saturday June 16, 2018 @04:06AM (#17326520)
I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that it's not clear that the advantage is so much as to be a relevant factor. I grew up in a very poor minority neighborhood and the language the teachers used in school was the same as the ones on the standardized test, so it's not like I wasn't prepared.

It's almost insulting to think that dialect matters that much considering how much exposure everyone gets to the mainstream dialect.

In China they've got a standard dialect and there doesn't appear to be any advantage for those that are from the area north of Beijing where the dialect originates.

Re:Asian-American admissions at Harvard by learc83 on Saturday June 16, 2018 @05:00AM (#17326652)
How much of an impact it has is debatable, but the academic consensus is that it is relevant. If you trust your own experiences and opinions more than the current research, there isn't much I can do to convince you otherwise.

>It's almost insulting to think that dialect matters that much considering how much exposure everyone gets to the mainstream dialect.

Whether it's insulting is irrelevant to whether it's true.

>In China they've got a standard dialect and there doesn't appear to be any advantage for those that are from the area north of Beijing where the dialect originates.

I'd be interested to know what your basing this assertion on. Gaokao scores in Beijing are distorted by families who try to move there from other areas to take the test and migration in general.

Combined with with relative lack of reliable data, I'm not sure how you could confidently make this claim.

Re:Asian-American admissions at Harvard by colordrops on Saturday June 16, 2018 @12:15PM (#17327972)
Do you have a link to the study? I'm curious what "relevant" means in this case.

From the beginning I've not denied that dialect can have an effect, only that I believe it to overwhelmed by a sea of countless other factors that cause someone to succeed or fail at getting into college, and I haven't seen any data that shows that it is the prevailing factor and one that truly matters.

The subtext to my comments is that this a debatable point, and I interjected because others were throwing veiled insults and calls of racism at anyone who tries to discuss this, which is an unfair way to shut conversation down.

Re:Asian-American admissions at Harvard by learc83 on Sunday June 17, 2018 @12:17AM (#17330854)
>only that I believe it to overwhelmed by a sea of countless other factors that cause someone to succeed or fail at getting into college

Yes it can be and is at an individual level.

If you removed 50 points from every Black student's SAT score just because they were Black, there would still be countless other factors that caused them to succeed for fail at getting into college. Their being Black wouldn't be the largest factor (family income still would be).

But across the entire population, you would see a significant drop in the number of Black students in college.

As to a link: Here's a link and a quote from the abstract of a relevant metastudy

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26090843

"The results showed a negative and moderate relationship between dialect use and overall literacy performance (M effect size = -0.33) and for dialect and reading (M effect size = -0.32). For spelling and writing, the relationship was negative and small (M effect size = -0.22). Moderator analyses revealed that socioeconomic status and grade level were not significant predictors for relations among dialect use and literacy skills."

Re:Asian-American admissions at Harvard by skookumchuck on Saturday June 16, 2018 @03:02AM (#17326292)
How about the math part? Besides, if I was on a college admissions board, I'd give consideration to an L2 speaker if his verbal scores were unusually below his math scores.
Re:Asian-American admissions at Harvard by learc83 on Saturday June 16, 2018 @03:21AM (#17326367)
I'm less familiar with math testing in general, but as far as direct effects go (not something caused by language of instruction) my guess is that it would be limited to instructions and word problems.
[dead]
Re:Asian-American admissions at Harvard by learc83 on Saturday June 16, 2018 @04:00AM (#17326503)
Yes. You've correctly read between the lines to discover my hidden, unwritten argument.

All standardized testing should be conducted in the universal language of interpretive dance.

Re:Asian-American admissions at Harvard by jiminy_john on Saturday June 16, 2018 @03:41PM (#17328955)
Solid stuff right here!