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Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by sverige on Friday June 15, 2018 @08:07PM (#17324845)
Stalin's propaganda was even effective in the U.S. He really deserves to be at the top of the list when evil leaders are discussed. Yes, Hitler was awful, but Stalin was far worse. But saying so often draws only criticism. That's how good his propaganda was.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by ropeadopepope on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:43PM (#17325294)
Hollywood Party by Kenneth Lloyd Billingsley should be required reading for all social studies classes in the US. It's staggering to consider how much of hollywood was funded by the USSR. They stopped in 1991.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by tptacek on Saturday June 16, 2018 @12:10AM (#17325774)
That book does not appear to be well-regarded.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by ropeadopepope on Saturday June 16, 2018 @01:57AM (#17326104)
By whom?
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by aeontech on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:30PM (#17325233)
I’m not sure any kind of “x was worse than y” makes sense on that scale of evils. How can one possibly weigh the countless lives lost due to decisions made by both? I think the only thing one can truly say is, both were terrible human beings, and hope we can detect and stop someone in the future from becoming such. Yet, I am not sure it is possible, the banality of evil is slow and unnoticeable until it is too late.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by sverige on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:35PM (#17325256)
My point is really that no one calls their opponents 'Stalin' or 'Commies' the same way people in America tend to call others 'Hitler' or 'Nazis,' which is surprising, given the enormity of the crimes against humanity committed by Stalin and the Russian Communists during roughly the same time. I posit that the root cause is due to the effects of propaganda. No one has really addressed that.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by szemet on Saturday June 16, 2018 @01:32AM (#17326022)
"...fascists ... they promised that they would wipe out a part of humanity and they did wipe out a part of humanity, while the Communists promised that everyone would be equal and did wipe out a part of humanity. The two things, we see, not the same, ..."

(Péter Esterházy: A szavak csodálatos életéből / my rough translation)

Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by 8bitsrule on Saturday June 16, 2018 @04:07AM (#17326523)
The (known) body count under Stalin by far outstrips Germany. But look at the history of rarely-mentioned Belarus during that era (I only recently did) ... a people caught between these two monsters ... and at Germany's 'Generalplan Ost'.

WP says: "During that time, Germany destroyed 209 out of 290 cities in the republic, 85% of the republic's industry, and more than one million buildings.... The population of Belarus did not regain its pre-war level until 1971.... "

A pox on both their houses. If Stalin is mentioned as a monster less often, it's probably because Russia was an ally ...

Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by aeontech on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:53PM (#17325344)
Oh, if you think "commie", "pinko", or "red" was not a dead-serious, job- or even life-threatening accusation in the past, you should read up on Red Scare, Hollywood Blacklist and McCarthyism.

The question of why insult X versus insult Y survives and thrives in this day is certainly interesting. I think it's a combination of many factors

- The enemy of my enemy is my friend, even if I don't like him very much. Ergo, if we were fighting Nazis together, by definition the Commies are not as bad. Considering the huge amount of media produced in all the time since the end of the war, in which the enemy is the safely defeated Nazis rather than still-potential-adversary Pinkos, it's probably safe to say that Nazi's are worse than Commies in absolute terms as far as the collective subconscious is concerned.

- Nazis are generally seen as wishing to exterminate, subjugate or banish all people outside their narrowly accepted criteria. Commies maybe exterminate their own people for their own internal reasons, but don't really threaten our existence nearly as much - for a long time, it's "live and let live" more or less. Ergo, I am more scared of Nazis than Commies (though don't underestimate the fear of nuclear annihilation the seventies and eighties kids grew up in).

- A lot of the fear of Commies was driven by disagreements over economic models, and fear of wealth loss by the "capitalist" class, obviously. That isn't really something very threatening to the average person, not on the instinctive level of "Nazis want to kill me because I exist". Those who lived through the red revolution and escaped it to the USA would have a much more visceral reaction to communism, but they would be a vanishing minority in the general population, I imagine.

- Finally, Nazism/Fascism is in the conversation these days because it's really a thing, unlike communism. There aren't many people stridently fighting and believing in communist ideals, but there indeed are people who hold pretty clearly and openly fascist beliefs. So, when you see someone called fascist, it's not necessarily an insult but a statement of fact.

Edit: I'm not defending Stalin or USSR, like I said in the parent comment, both leaders are indescribably horrible humans, in case that needs to be said.

Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by slededit on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:30PM (#17325477)
I think its more that the US was not directly at war with him, and thus the propaganda dollars were spent targeting Hitler.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by craftyguy on Saturday June 16, 2018 @12:47AM (#17325907)
> My point is really that no one calls their opponents 'Stalin' or 'Commies'

"Commie" is not a great word to call folks in the US. Thougth weight is not as great as 'nazis', some "media" outlets still use the term.

Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by tptacek on Saturday June 16, 2018 @12:11AM (#17325777)
An obvious problem here is that all for all practical purposes, all Nazis are "Hitlerists", but most modern Communists aren't Stalinists.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by pvg on Saturday June 16, 2018 @02:59AM (#17326286)
It's not really a naming problem.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by tptacek on Saturday June 16, 2018 @10:26AM (#17327542)
Is that what that argument says?
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by pvg on Saturday June 16, 2018 @11:57AM (#17327891)
Which one? It's a dorm room stoner debate type question except unlike many of those, this one has a totally straightforward answer. One of these ideologies has transparently morally repugnant goals and the other one doesn't. You can get there without even having to mention Hitler or Stalin.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by tptacek on Saturday June 16, 2018 @12:07PM (#17327933)
Yeah I think I was trying to say that, but didn't say it well.

I'd like to get better at shooting this argument down, because it comes up a lot; most discussions about the evils of communism --- and I think communism is a very bad system! --- seem like proxies for "opposition to right wing politics is evil".

Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by jarfil on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:37PM (#17325267)
Genghis Khan killed more, and yet he's considered a national hero.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by sverige on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:39PM (#17325278)
Plus, none of us have any family members who can tell stories of the people he killed.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by Pica_soO on Saturday June 16, 2018 @01:42AM (#17326056)
This is the final insult- if every murdered soul got a software agent, who posted under any praise/propaganda the one line. "He murdered me- name - at the age of .. age.. . Let me and what came not to be not be forgotten." that would silence this.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by 8bitsrule on Saturday June 16, 2018 @04:17AM (#17326551)
That, sir or madam, is an utterly fantastic idea.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by sorokod on Saturday June 16, 2018 @02:19AM (#17326179)
In China?
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by tluyben2 on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:19PM (#17325431)
I would leave out the comparison of the evils, but it is true that many forget Stalin (and others by the way; Pol Pot for instance) while Hilter is known by all as ‘most evil human’.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by Pica_soO on Saturday June 16, 2018 @01:45AM (#17326062)
I think its also that with Hitler is was part of the publicized plan- while Stalin, Mao and pot just had utopian dictator work accidents by reality induced paranoia.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by tluyben2 on Saturday June 16, 2018 @05:30AM (#17326727)
Possibly. Hitler was at least successful at almost owning a very large part of the world he did not own when he came into power. That probably scares people a lot more than someone taking over an existing territory and messing that up.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by remarkEon on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:03PM (#17325115)
I think you’re being downvoted because the conventional reasoning is that Nazi Germany would’ve likely conquered all of Europe if it wasn’t for the Soviet Union. While this is (mostly) true, if we’re operationalizing the definition of “evil” in terms of a raw body count Stalin would indeed be at the top of the list.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by mordant on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:18PM (#17325183)
The USSR would've conquered all of Europe if it weren't for Germany - read _Icebreaker_, et. al. by Suvorov.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by dragonwriter on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:17PM (#17325424)
> The USSR would've conquered all of Europe if it weren't for Germany

They might have tried.

Of course, without the Axis, Europe and the US would be firmly aligned against the USSR; the simultaneous existence of the Axis (which was more overtly expansionist) and the Soviet Union (whose ideology was more hostile to capitalist enterprise) split the capitalist West between those more concerned about the threat of Fascism and those more concerned about the threat of Communism.

Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by aeontech on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:22PM (#17325195)
Suvorov’s books are widely considered an entertaining alternative history fiction as far as I know. I’d be curious to know of any actual historians who consider his books a realistic and plausible version of history.
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by ropeadopepope on Friday June 15, 2018 @09:40PM (#17325286)
Patton's letter to his wife made it clear he thought we were fighting the wrong enemy.

edit: also, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOtinTlx7yo

Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by oldcynic on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:27PM (#17325461)
Don't forget Churchill's Operation Unthinkable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by aeontech on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:05PM (#17325372)
Patton was a general, and it was his job to consider and prepare for the worst, of course. That doesn't mean he had any magical insight into the Soviet plans before the war.

At the end of the war, Soviets were in Berlin. If they were bent on continental domination, they could've fairly easily taken the rest of the exhausted Europe. Instead, luckily, the Allies managed to work out a peace agreement that held until the shockingly peaceful dissolution of the USSR, despite several close calls.

Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by Turing_Machine on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:36PM (#17325489)
> If they were bent on continental domination, they could've fairly easily taken the rest of the exhausted Europe.

Hmm... and what do you imagine the Americans would have been doing while this was going on, given that they still had a gigantic and completely undamaged industrial economy (the only one left in the world, at that stage), nuclear weapons, and truly massive amounts of troops and equipment that would have been available for redeployment from the Pacific after Japan's surrender?

Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by aeontech on Friday June 15, 2018 @11:27PM (#17325648)
Well, yeah. Hence peace talks, surely. Unlike a certain Hitler who decides to open a war on multiple fronts at once. I was arguing against the notion that “if it wasn’t for Germany, Soviets would have conquered Europe.”
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by ropeadopepope on Friday June 15, 2018 @10:28PM (#17325467)
> they could've fairly easily taken the rest of the exhausted Europe.

From Patton's journal, taken from The Patton Papers, 1940–1945, edited by Martin Blumenson:

> 18 May

> In my opinion, the American Army as it now exists could beat the Russians with the greatest of ease, because while the Russians have good infantry, they are lacking in artillery, air, tanks, and in the knowledge of the use of the combined arms’ whereas we excel in all three of these. If it should be necessary to fight the Russians, the sooner we do it the better.

Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by aeontech on Friday June 15, 2018 @11:30PM (#17325653)
Perfectly reasonable statement in his position, but I don’t see how it translates to “we were fighting the wrong enemy all along.”
Re:The dark story behind Stalin’s popular photo with a Sovie... by ropeadopepope on Saturday June 16, 2018 @10:31AM (#17327567)
Patton said, word for word, "We defeated the wrong enemy" when he was relieved of his command. Which is trivial to find had you spent 10 seconds in google.