News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by lrn on Thursday June 14, 2018 @08:18PM (#17316478)
The Fountainhead Chapter I; Howard Roark to the Dean

---

"Why do you want me to think that this is great architecture?" He pointed to the picture of the Parthenon.

"That," said the Dean, "is the Parthenon!"

"So it is."

"I haven't the time to waste on silly questions."

"All right, then." Roark got up, he took a long ruler from the desk, he walked to the picture. "Shall I tell you what's rotten about it?"

"It’s the Parthenon!" said the Dean.

"Yes, God damn it, the Parthenon."

The ruler struck the glass over the picture.

"Look, " said Roark. "The famous flutings on the the famous columns—what are they there for? To hide the joints in the wood—when columns were made of wood, only these aren't, they're marble. The triglyphs, what are they? Wood. Wooden beams, the way they had to be laid when people began to build wooden shacks. Your Greeks took marble and they made copies of their wooden structures out of it, because others had done it that way. Then your masters of the Renaissance came along and made copies in plaster of copies in marble of copies in wood. Now here we are, making copies in steel and concrete of copies in plaster of copies in marble of copies in wood. Why?"

Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by peterwwillis on Thursday June 14, 2018 @08:55PM (#17316670)
This isn't the only example of that. Imitating an archaic form of architecture is often a homage.

Go to some modern temples/shrines in Japan. Check out the torii gates and any other classical looking structure. Compare the ones in wood to the ones in stone or concrete. They look identical.

If you look close, you'll notice the little details sticking out of parts of the design. It's almost always a part of Japanese wood joinery. But it's still in the stone copies. Is it bad design? Of course not. That simple, striking, beautiful, complicated wood joinery has its own unique aesthetic appeal, and shaving off features just because they aren't necessary is completely beside the point of aesthetic beauty. To say nothing of honoring the tradition of a difficult and highly effective craft.

Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by mygo on Thursday June 14, 2018 @09:22PM (#17316782)
Is the goal to make beautiful structures, or is it to make beautiful structures as if they still have the characteristics of wood?

I’m inclined to believe that, if the original masterful wood-crafters had instead began their professions with stone, that they would have created beautiful structures that fully explored the capabilities of stone, and that their contributions to architecture may have looked a little different, but no less aesthetic.

So, assuming the will of the original craftsmen was to simply make the most aesthetic structures that their materials would allow (and maybe I’m wrong about that), would it be paying homage to them by making stone copies of their wooden accomplishments while working in a new medium with different characteristics, or would it be paying homage to them by continuing their pursuit and fully exploring the capabilities of stone, as the forefathers had done with wood?

That’s a question with no right answer... but I personally believe that homage is not to copy one’s output, but to copy one’s input.. To seek what they sought. To do as they would have done if they had stone instead of wood.

Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by mannykannot on Thursday June 14, 2018 @09:55PM (#17316940)
I have a good deal of agreement with you, but the architectural (as opposed to engineering) crime that bugs me the most is an egoistic new structure that makes no attempt to work with its surroundings, when its surroundings have merit in their own right.
Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by dragonwriter on Thursday June 14, 2018 @10:23PM (#17317070)
> Is the goal to make beautiful structures, or is it to make beautiful structures as if they are still have the characteristics of wood?

Beauty is subjective and the development of taste is path-dependent. A thing can be beautiful because it evokes features that make a designar successful for functional reasons in historical media.

Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by peterwwillis on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:15AM (#17317657)
I'm not in disagreement with you, but there is another aspect to consider.

In the case of many of these structures, their physical form is a reflection of some spiritual aspect. They're basically religious icons. Their design may be carried forward in part just because not doing so would be disrespectful on a spiritual level, or because they remind people of something. But they're not all the same.

There are probably thousands of different torii gates with slightly different designs. Some show an extended nuki with kusabi wedges, a modified mortise and tenon style joinery. But many torii gates don't feature these. Nuki joints are actually widely used as ornamental carpentry, and can be found in several non-wooden objects.

The construction of most torii, regardless of their material, seems to be about aesthetics (and honoring whoever paid to put it up) before the rest.

If you want maximum accomplishment with a material, check out their multi story pagodas that use a massive wooden beam in the middle. It acts as a mass damper and prevents the different floors from sliding off the building during an earthquake, as they aren't attached to each other. Hard to do that with stone! :)

Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by echotango on Thursday June 14, 2018 @09:59PM (#17316960)
I agree with you, but only because you seem to have missed the crux (no irony intended) of Ayn Rand's ideology. She hated how even the style of the buildings around her embodied a people and culture she saw as a threat to her vision of the world and wanted to tear down. She would have no "homage" to it at all.
Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by mannykannot on Thursday June 14, 2018 @10:07PM (#17317012)
We are under no obligation to regard Rand as the last word on anything, fortunately.
Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by echotango on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:20AM (#17317674)
Agreed. It's pretty questionable to tell a Frenchman he shouldn't be proud of the Eiffel Tower because he didnt personally design it.
Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by yorwba on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:46AM (#17317757)
Then why do you keep bringing up Rand's opinion on architecture only to state that you disagree?
Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by echotango on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @10:54AM (#17347227)
Because an earlier post misunderstood Rand's position and I wanted to clarify it. I guess I should have been more clear. My appologies.
Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Thursday June 14, 2018 @08:43PM (#17316599)
Then again the Parthenon has has been around for nearly 2,500 years (finished in 432 BC), and during that time has been considered by people from all over the world one of the most beautiful buildings ever built.

What building by modern architects will even be around 500 years from now, much less revered as an example of beautiful architecture?

Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by subjectsigma on Thursday June 14, 2018 @09:15PM (#17316751)
I can see La Sagrada Familia not only being around, but being celebrated, for 500 years more. It's still under construction and has been for (almost?) 100 years. Google it, the church is absolutely beautiful.

In fitting with the theme of the GP, not only is it structurally sound (to my knowledge) because of how the pillars are constructed, but it successfully pays homage to Gothic architecture and the oldest inspiration, Nature, while also being new and innovative.

Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by echotango on Thursday June 14, 2018 @09:47PM (#17316907)
I agree, it is beautiful. But Ayn Rand would have hated it. That design is steeped in European and Christian traditions and symbolism. Those things are all anathema to her ideology.
Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by paulie_a on Thursday June 14, 2018 @10:41PM (#17317137)
But honestly who gives a shit about what Ayn Rand would have thought about it. She was a nut and her ideology should be aggressively dismissed as simplistic and quite frankly stupid.
Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by echotango on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:22AM (#17317682)
I totally agree. I was pointing out that church isn't really modern architechture as Rand saw it.
Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by steve19 on Thursday June 14, 2018 @10:04PM (#17316997)
As others have said Cathedrals (if you consider anything that has been build in the past 500 years modern) and I have seen Mosques that are breathtaking.

Religious communities have the motivation to build something that lasts and use the best of materials. They see the building as an act of worship, in and of itself. Cathedrals often took extremely long times to build. In some cases, such as the beautiful Sheikh Zayed Grand Mosque, they also have the money to build it both well and quickly.

Within many modern protestant Christian communities, building grand buildings is seen as a poor use of money that could be better spent helping people. These grand buildings are seen as less comfortable, efficient and flexible for modern congregations that would prefer lower cost, environmentally friendly and low energy building with community facilities.

Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by bigger_cheese on Thursday June 14, 2018 @10:41PM (#17317138)
I think beauty is a very subjective thing. I absolutely love the appearance of the UTS tower in central Sydney all my friends think I'm mad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTS_Tower

Something about those big blocky Brutalist style concrete box buildings you just know the thing is nigh indestructible and is going to be around forever and that to me is the beauty of the thing it has such as permanence about it. It just kind of sticks out there and says 'here I am deal with it'.

Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by carapace on Thursday June 14, 2018 @09:03PM (#17316703)
Saint Mary's Cathedral (in San Francisco)

I don't say it's as beautiful as the Parthenon, and it might not last 500 years, but we moderns aren't completely shabby...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Saint_Mary_of_the...

> Its saddle roof is composed of eight segments of hyperbolic paraboloids, in such a fashion that the bottom horizontal cross section of the roof is a square and the top cross section is a cross.

The interior is open.

Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by bschwindHN on Thursday June 14, 2018 @09:58PM (#17316956)
That picture reminded me of a building I saw in Tokyo. Turns out it's also a Saint Mary's Cathedral:

https://goo.gl/maps/R2arUkpaZeD2

The top cross section is also a cross on this one.

Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by crwalker on Thursday June 14, 2018 @09:40PM (#17316868)
I suspect that a lot of our better skyscrapers will be around in 500 years: once a pattern is set, people like to preserve it.
Re:FIU had grand plans for 'signature' bridge. But the desig... by jfoutz on Thursday June 14, 2018 @09:45PM (#17316897)
Also it looks taller, same reasons people prefer vertical stripes to horizontal stripes. Pinstripes, corduroy, stuff like that take advantage of the same effect.