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Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by walterbell on Thursday June 14, 2018 @11:40AM (#17312462)
Where can someone buy a device with a virtualization-enabled MIPS CPU? https://www.mips.com/products/architectures/ase/virtualizati...

From https://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?section_id=36&doc_id=1332...

"... if a company seeks to manage MIPS correctly, what’s the strategy? “The value is in restoring the IP roadmap, the MIPS brand, and coming at the market in a way that doesn’t put MIPS head-to-head with ARM, but concentrates on the parts of the market where ARM is weak and there is good opportunity to license,” one executive said. Citing Mediatek’s recent decision to use MIPS instead of ARM in its modem, he stressed, “ARM is in the modem by default, not for any particular suitability or technological advantage. The apps processor is where ARM has the real advantage, as all of Google Android is built on it, so you avoid this area completely.”

From https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/1373/wave-to-acquire-mips/

"[Wave] ... raised $56.7M in funding led by Tallwood Venture Capital – the current owners of MIPS ... While Wave Computing holds over 60 patents, MIPS holds 100s ... in March, Wave announced that they will be integrating the 64-bit MIPS IP cores into their future DPUs. The integration is done in order to allow existing MIPS-based RTOS to handle the control and management functionalities of the chip. Conversely, Wave might be seeing an opportunity by injecting their IPs into the MIPS existing ecosystem. MIPS software and tools are quite mature and can certainly accelerate Wave’s development."

Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by puzzle on Thursday June 14, 2018 @11:55AM (#17312574)
Probably nowhere. :-( MIPS was, almost twenty years ago, perhaps the first architecture that had 64-bit capable chips you could power with two AAA batteries (along with RAM, a screen and the rest of the system). Talk about squandered opportunities! For some reason, it was all downhill after the PS2/PSP.
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by zwieback on Thursday June 14, 2018 @12:02PM (#17312630)
That reason is ARM, they just crushed everyone with their business model even though they weren't best at anything.
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by baybal2 on Friday June 15, 2018 @06:55AM (#17318832)
>That reason is ARM, they just crushed everyone with their business model even though they weren't best at anything.

Not business model per-se, but not being crippled by pointy hair boss types from C-levels to lowest level managers.

Second to that what got them ahead was their lack of greed and ambition.

Few people who had firsthand experience with buying IC IP licenses I know tell of MIPS 10 years ago as "we will not simply sell you a core, but force feed you all peripherals, and make you pay for 20 more licenses for god know what along the way." Compare it to ARM where you wire money today and get a guy coming to your office to drop off harddrives with netlists a week after.

For support, documentation, software, and everything else ARM was light years ahead.

Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by puzzle on Thursday June 14, 2018 @12:41PM (#17312981)
When I said "for some reason", I was trying not to go into speculation. But yeah, ARM definitely attacked them in the embedded market from the lower end. And Motorola, transitioning from 68k to PPC, from the high end (PPC was very popular for laser printers, for example), later joined by IBM (Cell/Xenon). We all know what happened to SGI in the server/workstation market.
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by pjmlp on Thursday June 14, 2018 @12:55PM (#17313107)
SGI also have themselves to blame when they decided to be just yet another hardware vendor selling Linux/Windows systems.
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by bogomipz on Thursday June 14, 2018 @06:06PM (#17315860)
I'm not understanding your comment. Weren't they always just that - a hardware vendor? I think they had some image editing stuff that only ran on their boxes but didn't they still essentially make their money on the high end hardware needed to run those programs?
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by pjmlp on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:06AM (#17317638)
All commercial UNIX vendors were hardware vendors.

What made them special is how they combined their hardware with their own version version of UNIX.

Hence why even trying to write portable code across UNIXEs wasn't as easy as many believe.

Irix had IrisGL, Iris Inventor, XFS and a few other goodies, before they became the Open variants.

SGI was also a big sponsor of the C++ STL work.

Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by trasz on Friday June 15, 2018 @04:51AM (#17318394)
Twenty different vendors combined their hardware with their own version of Unix. There was nothing special about that.
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by pjmlp on Friday June 15, 2018 @05:25AM (#17318514)
Sure there was, the vertical integration and overall user experience.
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by bogomipz on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:09PM (#17321457)
How did that make them different than all the other vendors that had their own hardware and versions of UNIX at the time - HPUX, Solaris, DEC etc?
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by walterbell on Friday June 15, 2018 @08:50AM (#17319367)
With the end of Moore's Law, are we returning to vertically integrated hardware+software?

Domain Specific Architecture talk by Hennessy & Patterson, 2018 talk for 2017 Turing Award: http://iscaconf.org/isca2018/docs/HennessyPattersonTuringLec...

Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by pjmlp on Friday June 15, 2018 @12:47PM (#17321255)
I will watch the talk later.

However I can say yes, we are returning to those days.

Thanks to the thin razor margins you see OEMs now selling un-upgradable phones, laptops, tablets, 2-1, leaving the old desktop PC for a niche market that gets smaller every year, mostly targeted at gamers.

Also OEMs got envious of Apple as the surviving icon of those days, all of them want to be Apple of their market and sell experiences.

Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by trasz on Friday June 15, 2018 @04:49AM (#17318387)
SGI abandoned MIPS and IRIX, because there was no longer any economical reason to maintain them - x86 was faster and cheaper, and Windows was much more popular than Unix. SGI's main strenght was GPUs, not workstations.
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by pjmlp on Friday June 15, 2018 @05:26AM (#17318524)
Where are those GPUs now?
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by Fnoord on Friday June 15, 2018 @05:43AM (#17318578)
Nvidia. That's where a lot of the SGI engineers went to work.
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by trasz on Friday June 15, 2018 @07:40AM (#17319003)
And that's largely because SGI figured it way too late.
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by ethn on Thursday June 14, 2018 @12:31PM (#17312870)
What was unique about their business model? Licensing their hardware/software?
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by zwieback on Thursday June 14, 2018 @03:21PM (#17314561)
I don't think it was unique, just that MIPS, PowerPC and the other players at the time were linked to large companies that were not as good at working with everyone and anyone who wanted to use their cores.
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by baybal2 on Friday June 15, 2018 @06:44AM (#17318784)
>I don't think it was unique, just that MIPS, PowerPC and the other players at the time were linked to large companies that were not as good at working with everyone and anyone who wanted to use their cores.

The no. 1 reason ARM went ahead

Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by spilk on Friday June 15, 2018 @11:17AM (#17320314)
Crazy to think about the range of devices the architecture supported, from small battery-powered things to giant multi-rack SGI Onyx machines.

I'm still impressed with my dual-R12000 Octane today.

Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by bogomipz on Thursday June 14, 2018 @06:03PM (#17315830)
>"MIPS was, almost twenty years ago, perhaps the first architecture that had 64-bit capable chips you could power with two AAA batteries"

Is this a specific reference? What device would that be?

Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by puzzle on Friday June 15, 2018 @05:26AM (#17318521)
Yes, I mention it above. It's an Agenda VR3, a Linux PDA from 2001. I still have one of those. The CPU is from 2000.
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by monocasa on Thursday June 14, 2018 @12:10PM (#17312682)
Which system are you talking about? The PSP was 32 bit IIRC.
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by puzzle on Thursday June 14, 2018 @12:35PM (#17312912)
The Linux Agenda VR3 ran on two AAA batteries and used a 66MHz NEC VR4181. That's a 32/64bit MIPSIII chip. The VR3 only used it in 32bit mode, but you could take over the system and enable 64bit mode. It was little-endian only, unfortunately.
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by monocasa on Thursday June 14, 2018 @01:10PM (#17313230)
Neat!
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by nickpsecurity on Thursday June 14, 2018 @03:33PM (#17314661)
Cavium probably has the best ones:

https://www.cavium.com/octeon-III-CN7XXX.html

Their stuff turns up on eBay sometimes. Last one I saw was an Octeon II PCI card for just over $200. I was going to use it for network/firewall offloading. Blocking things like Intel ME, too.

Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by bogomipz on Thursday June 14, 2018 @06:15PM (#17315917)
>"...Blocking things like Intel ME"

Can you elaborate on this? How were you using these to block Intel ME?

Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by nickpsecurity on Thursday June 14, 2018 @07:22PM (#17316243)
Some of my designs replaced TCP/IP with alternative stack. A gateway device that spoke both could translate and do security work. The traffic would only go to designated parts of memory. So, traffic going to ME would never reach it or would come in via format it doesnt understand.

I was thinking last year about building one with new hardware given all the hardware/firmware vulnerabilities showing up. I have it on back burner fof now.

Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by walterbell on Friday June 15, 2018 @08:53AM (#17319381)
Doesn't ME have DMA access (even bypassing VT-d) to all memory?
Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by nickpsecurity on Friday June 15, 2018 @03:58PM (#17323027)
I always combine strong architecture with obfuscation. In this case, my design attempts to address the risk in these ways:

1. It needs a communication channel. My guard denies it that.

2. It will create or receive packets using standard format that existing channels support. Using obfuscated formats before traffic hits the guard means its packets will just be dropped.

3. It can still be programmed to just attack the system somehow. Now, we're in realm of targeted, sophisticated attacks more likely to be noticed. That's already an improvement to status quo.

I still think someone should try paying either company's semi-custom division to make one without a ME. Add an extra must-have feature that accelerates common workloads, esp web cache or database, to generate further sales. If they refuse to remove it, then that would be really admitying something if they accepted other modifications for money.

Re:AI chip startup Wave to buy Silicon Valley old-timer MIPS by bogomipz on Friday June 15, 2018 @01:06PM (#17321430)
I was wondering the same. My understanding was that it ran at a level much lower than could be introspected with regular(non-proprietary)tooling.