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Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by Jaruzel on Friday June 08, 2018 @10:42AM (#17265869)
Ok, so...

Linux Newbie:

"I need to find out how much space I have left on this machine."

  > freespace
  bash: freespace: command not found
  > diskspace
  bash: diskspace: command not found
  > disk info
  bash: disk: command not found
  > diskinfo
  bash: diskinfo: command not found
  > man disk space
  No manual entry for disk
  No manual entry for space
  > help disk space
  bash: help: no help topics match `space'.  Try `help help' or `man -k space' or `info space'.
(looks it up on the internet)

  > df /dev/sda1
  Filesystem     1K-blocks    Used Available Use% Mounted on
  /dev/sda1       19478160 1370768  17094912   8% /
... AND that's why GUIs are preferred by most non-technical computer users.

EDIT: Maybe I should have said 'CLI Newbie' - I am in no-way singling out Linux here.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by claudius on Friday June 08, 2018 @10:55AM (#17266007)

    $ apropos space
    CORE (3perl)         - Namespace for Perl's core routines
    arpd (8)             - userspace arp daemon.
    CMSG_SPACE (3)       - access ancillary data
    CUDA_ERROR_INVALID_ADDRESS_SPACE (3) - (unknown subject)
    cudaErrorInvalidAddressSpace (3) - (unknown subject)
    df (1)               - report file system disk space usage
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by Jaruzel on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:00AM (#17266067)
Thank you, you just re-enforced my point; I've been using Linux seriously for about a year now, and I didn't know about 'apropos'. Bash never mentioned it whenever I got stuck, and my learning travels on the internet has never referenced it.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by blister on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:24AM (#17266343)
Hah, I've been using Unix-based OSes in a professional capacity for over 15 years and I've never heard of apropos. :)
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by JackCh on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:38AM (#17266497)
There is also `man -k`. -k of course is short for "apropos". It's all very logical and intuitive.

(Seriously though, reading the manpage for man is where I first learned about apropos.)

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by jandrese on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:20AM (#17266297)
Honestly google is a better tool unless you already kind of know what you're looking for.

Google "linux how much space on drive" and the first hit tells you exactly what you need.

Another question someone might ask is "how do I change my password". Google for "linux change password" and there is a special help box right at the top of the search results.

apropos password and you get this enormous list:

  apg (1)              - generates several random passwords
  chage (1)            - change user password expiry information
  chgpasswd (8)        - update group passwords in batch mode
  chpasswd (8)         - update passwords in batch mode
  cpgr (8)             - copy with locking the given file to the password or gr...
  cppw (8)             - copy with locking the given file to the password or gr...
  cracklib-check (8)   - Check passwords using libcrack2
  create-cracklib-dict (8) - Check passwords using libcrack2
  crypt (3)            - password and data encryption
  crypt_r (3)          - password and data encryption
  des_read_2passwords (3ssl) - Compatibility user interface functions
  des_read_password (3ssl) - Compatibility user interface functions
  doveadm-pw (1)       - Dovecot's password hash generator
  endpwent (3)         - get password file entry
  endspent (3)         - get shadow password file entry
  EVP_BytesToKey (3ssl) - password based encryption routine
  expiry (1)           - check and enforce password expiration policy
  fgetpwent (3)        - get password file entry
  fgetspent (3)        - get shadow password file entry
  fgetspent_r (3)      - get shadow password file entry
  getpass (3)          - get a password
  getpw (3)            - reconstruct password line entry
  getpwent (3)         - get password file entry
  getpwnam (3)         - get password file entry
  getpwnam_r (3)       - get password file entry
  getpwuid (3)         - get password file entry
  getpwuid_r (3)       - get password file entry
  getspent (3)         - get shadow password file entry
  getspent_r (3)       - get shadow password file entry
  getspnam (3)         - get shadow password file entry
  getspnam_r (3)       - get shadow password file entry
  git-credential-cache (1) - Helper to temporarily store passwords in memory
  gitcredentials (7)   - providing usernames and passwords to Git
  grpconv (8)          - convert to and from shadow passwords and groups
  grpunconv (8)        - convert to and from shadow passwords and groups
  grub-mkpasswd-pbkdf2 (1) - generate hashed password for GRUB
  lckpwdf (3)          - get shadow password file entry
  login.defs (5)       - shadow password suite configuration
  lppasswd (1)         - add, change, or delete digest passwords.
  Net::LDAP::Control::PasswordPolicy (3pm) - LDAPv3 Password Policy control object
  Net::LDAP::Extension::SetPassword (3pm) - LDAPv3 Modify Password extension ob...
  pam_pwhistory (8)    - PAM module to remember last passwords
  pam_unix (8)         - Module for traditional password authentication
  passwd (1)           - change user password
  passwd (1ssl)        - compute password hashes
  passwd (5)           - the password file
  passwd2des (3)       - RFS password encryption
  putpwent (3)         - write a password file entry
  putspent (3)         - get shadow password file entry
  pwck (8)             - verify integrity of password files
  pwconv (8)           - convert to and from shadow passwords and groups
  pwunconv (8)         - convert to and from shadow passwords and groups
  seahorse (1)         - Passwords and Keys
  setpwent (3)         - get password file entry
  setspent (3)         - get shadow password file entry
  sgetspent (3)        - get shadow password file entry
  sgetspent_r (3)      - get shadow password file entry
  shadow (5)           - shadowed password file
  shadowconfig (8)     - toggle shadow passwords on and off
  smbpasswd (5)        - The Samba encrypted password file
  smbpasswd (8)        - change a user's SMB password
  ulckpwdf (3)         - get shadow password file entry
  unix_chkpwd (8)      - Helper binary that verifies the password of the curren...
  unix_update (8)      - Helper binary that updates the password of a given user
  vigr (8)             - edit the password, group, shadow-password or shadow-gr...
  vipw (8)             - edit the password, group, shadow-password or shadow-gr...
  xcrypt (3)           - RFS password encryption
  xdecrypt (3)         - RFS password encryption
  xencrypt (3)         - RFS password encryption
If you didn't already know you were looking for the "passwd" command it might be hard to pick it out of the list.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by catwell on Friday June 08, 2018 @12:04PM (#17266755)

    $ apropos -a change password
    chage (1)            - change user password expiry information
    kpasswd (1)          - change a user's Kerberos password
    passwd (1)           - change user password
    PKCS12_newpass (3ssl) - change the password of a PKCS12 structure

    $ apropos -a space disk
    df (1)               - report file system disk space usage
    df (1p)              - report free disk space
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by jandrese on Friday June 08, 2018 @12:31PM (#17267069)
The fact that the search defaults to "or" instead of "and" is a design flaw IMHO. By far the most common case when you have multiple arguments is that you want the item that contains all of the keywords.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by cpmouter on Friday June 08, 2018 @04:00PM (#17269202)
Filter it by section...

man -k -S1 password

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by jandrese on Friday June 08, 2018 @05:13PM (#17269735)
Nothing says user friendly like making the user read the manual for his manual so he can memorize the nine different categories (plus perhaps custom categores like TCLs) to get the manual page he wants.

I use man and apropos all of the time, but I have no illusion that they're new user friendly. They're amazing when you just need to look up some options or get the syntax for a system call, but if you've not assimilated the Unix way of thinking they're quite obtuse.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by floatingatoll on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:34AM (#17266457)
This example would be a lot less ironically-unhelpful if 'apropos' were renamed 'help'.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by teddyh on Friday June 08, 2018 @05:05PM (#17269670)
The name “help” is, unfortunately, already taken by a shell built-in command. But one could argue that this help command should be very much more helpful than the restricted functionality it currently implements.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by jandrese on Friday June 08, 2018 @03:21PM (#17268831)
I think people would complain that apropos doesn't do its job if it were named help.

Apropos would be a powerful part of a "help" command, but in 50 years nobody has ever written a help command that gained enough traction to be included in the standard toolchain.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by floatingatoll on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:52PM (#17286047)
Request granted!

Apropos doesn’t do it’s job because it isn’t named — or integrated with — help.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by pinkythepig on Friday June 08, 2018 @01:27PM (#17267716)
I feel like the real problem here is that bash is still the default and bash defaults/UX are straight up awful. The fish shell gets a lot of things right in regards to a sane out of the box experience, though there are a few things it could do better.

The tools themselves leave a lot to be desired from a UX experience too. Things like nonsense names, bad defaults and/or no inherent intelligence in the program, means you have to specify numerous options manually for things that should be easy to automate.

The whole experience would benefit greatly by telling people about things like man/apropros on first startup and other one time tutorials.

There are some days where I feel tempted to write small helper scripts whose sole purpose would be to rename/reorient the default experience/flags of various CLI apps, so that it is not a jumbled mess full of historical accidents that can no longer be changed.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by umanwizard on Friday June 08, 2018 @10:48AM (#17265927)
Windows Newbie:

“I need to find out how much space I have left on this machine.”

Now what?

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by Jaruzel on Friday June 08, 2018 @10:55AM (#17266012)
"Oh there's a folder icon" (click)

"Oh there's an entry called My PC" (click)

"Aha, there's my disk and little bar showing the free space"

It's two clicks if you have your wits about you, maybe a few more if its not that obvious.

I don't know why you singled out Windows. It's just as easy in Gnome or KDE etc - the point here is that CLIs can never be as intuitive as GUIs. As the original article said - Humans are very visual people. Seeing things in a visual space is much easier for us.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by stephengillie on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:02AM (#17266100)
Further, Windows will pop up a notification that your disk space is running low, and this opens another window with suggestions for different types of files (temporary update files, temporary internet files, recycle bin, installed programs) that can be removed to release space.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by pbhjpbhj on Friday June 08, 2018 @12:21PM (#17266939)
Ubuntu does warnings for low disk space too.

Personally I think the experience is very similar for noobs.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by dingo_bat on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:21AM (#17266311)
Press windows key, type "space". First item is "Storage". Press enter or click it, you see a prominent progress bar like thing and text: "300GB used, 164GB free".
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by hiccuphippo on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:00AM (#17266071)
Click on My PC. The answer is there on the disk icons.

But then again, why wouldn't the Linux guy search google in the first place?

Or if it is a total newbie, look for the disk icons, the information is there as well.